Redefining Society Podcast

Are We Capturing Or Making Up Reality? Does Experience Even Matter Anymore In Photography And The Creation Of Our Personal Memories? | A Conversation with William Wu | Redefining Society with Marco Ciappelli

Episode Summary

Artificial intelligence is revolutionizing the fields of digital imaging, photography, and modeling by automating processes, enhancing creative possibilities, and transforming how visual data is captured, processed, and utilized.

Episode Notes

Guest: William Wu, CEO at Artisse [@artisseai]

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Host: Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast

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Episode Introduction

Welcome, dear listeners, to another episode of "Redefining Society," where we muse on the intricate blend of society and technology. I'm Marco Ciappelli, and today's conversation goes beyond the pixels and data points to explore a realm that both fascinates and bewilders us—the world of Generative AI in the context of photography, art, and advertising.

Generative AI is an entity unto itself, for it enables us to create photos that don't just replicate reality, but often transcend it. Imagine a world where one doesn't need to stand in front of the Eiffel Tower to be photographed there. A realm where you can immortalize a moment with a loved one who is no longer with us—crafted not by mere camera clicks but by algorithms. The digital and the "real" are becoming increasingly indistinguishable, as lines blur and boundaries fade.

As we delve into this, we must ask ourselves: What does this mean for traditional photography? For the art of capturing a moment as it is? A craft which required meticulous understanding of lighting, posing, and the subtle interplay of colors now finds itself at a crossroads. And what of the world of modeling and advertising? Where does this put professional models and photographers who spend years perfecting their skill?

Moreover, we cannot overlook the societal implications. The seductive ease of creating our own version of reality with a few clicks carries with it ethical questions and dilemmas. When reality itself becomes subjective, or even editable, we begin to lose touch with a common ground of shared experiences. In our desire for perfection, there's the risk of obliterating the raw, flawed beauty of real life.

But let's not fall into an abyss of despair. Technology, after all, is a double-edged sword; it can isolate us but also bring us closer to experiences we might never have otherwise had. It democratizes opportunities but also raises concerns about authenticity. My guest today, William Wu, joins me to ponder these questions, offering a perspective that bridges business insights and philosophical quandaries.

So, as we navigate this discourse, let's remind ourselves that we are virtually connected, not just by wires and Wi-Fi, but by a collective consciousness that continues to redefine society in ways that are both intriguing and unsettling.

I invite you to lean in, listen, and let this conversation catalyze your own thoughts on how Generative AI is reshaping our understanding of what's real, what's possible, and what it means to be truly human in this ever-evolving digital landscape.

Your curiosity is the key, and the conversation has just begun. Subscribe, share, and stay tuned for a dialogue that promises to provoke, challenge, and inspire. 

Welcome to the Redefining Society Podcast.





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Episode Transcription

Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording, as errors may exist. At this time, we provide it “as it is,” and we hope it can be helpful for our audience.


[00:00:00] Marco Ciappelli: All right. Okay, everybody, this is Marco Ciappelli and this is Redefining Society podcast. I'm laughing because we just had a little technical glitch here where I thought I was starting recording and I just disappeared from the screen. And William here, my guest today, uh, it was very patient. 

I came back and we're just get going again. So here's technology for you. There is the good and there is the bad. The good is that I am talking to William, uh, all the way. You can see if you're watching the video in a, in a dark environment, which is, uh, in Asia. And he will tell us, uh, where he is if he wants to, and I'm here in LA, of course. 

So, on the other side, virtually connected, as we do many things in our life nowadays. That's why we are redefining society, the way we interact with each other. Today's conversation is right up my alley. It's about photography, it's about art, it's about advertising, which is my background, as many of you know, and, uh, and the way that it's affecting our life. 

And, uh, Most specifically generative AI and how it is More and more being part of our life. So enough with this introduction. I want to introduce William here. Welcome to the show  

[00:01:17] William Wu: Hey, thank you. Thanks. Thanks a lot for having me.  

[00:01:19] Marco Ciappelli: Oh, it's a pleasure. So let's start with uh, You, the, the real you. Who is William? 

And, uh, why are you interested in having this conversation with me in terms of art, uh, photography, generative ai, and, uh, and I know you have, uh, you have a very, um, an involvement from a business perspective in, in something like this too. So let's, let's hear about you.  

[00:01:46] William Wu: Yeah. So my background, um, I'm originally from Sydney, Australia. 

Um, live in, uh, uh, uh, Seoul right now. Uh, and, uh, I started my career, uh, in, in general business. So I did consulting for a number of years and then I did something that was, uh, pretty interesting. It's called special situations. Um, and that was basically, uh, finding companies that had, or, or, you know, when, when, when times change, right, whether it's regulatory change or technology change or market conditions change, um, what happens oftentimes, right, is that there are some companies that are very, very well positioned and some that aren't that well positioned. 

Right? And so we spent a lot of time, um, in my career, or I spent a lot of time in my career. Right. Basically finding these companies or these opportunities and then, you know, positioning myself very well and then riding the wave up and a lot of that involved, um, helping the company or working with the company, um, and, and, and navigating it through the, the, the, the, essentially the special situation. 

Um, and then really, I think, uh, for me, AI and photography, um, especially in photography, uh, photography, um, is, you know, probably the special situation of a century, um, uh, photography, as you well know, uh, known, uh, hasn't really changed over the course of the last two decades. Um, it's largely quite static. Um, you know, you still have to go and take photos, uh, manually. 

If you want to get really great photos, uh, you have to actually, uh, if you think about it, let's say you're a young female, right? You have to do your hair, your makeup. You have to get up there, you have to find a place to take photos, you then have to actually take hundreds of photos and hopefully you know how to pose very well and you actually have a photographer and then you have to travel all the way home and then edit them all. 

And out of every 100 photos that you actually create, um, you know, you might only pick three or four that actually end up going on Instagram. So that's a pretty heavy journey, um, and same with photography and, uh, you know, I would consider business, right? So think about advertising companies, right? To go and shoot. 

A single commercial using models, right? It'll cost you a hundred thousand dollars plus, uh, six weeks and you'll get eight photos, right? Very, very long journey. And so, you know, I think the very interesting thing about AI, especially in the last 12 months is that that's disrupted all of that. Um, you know, in the future, uh, the reason we're interested, right, is because, uh, you know, we see as AI taking the lead to automate what. 

Is currently a very, very manual process and what has been a manual process for the last two decades.  

[00:04:12] Marco Ciappelli: All right. So there is a lot going on there and I'm kind of processing in my head with some artificial intelligence where I'm going to go. So my first observation about this is I definitely agree with you. 

I mean, we're going in places that I think. 10, 15, 20 years ago, we wouldn't even imagine. Um, I'm thinking one of the big revolution for photography, which is different from the way you presented it, but was the digital photography, right? So I, I'm old enough that I worked in advertising with photographer that we're coming in with a film camera. 

So talking about investment in really, you know, using the shots, not, you know, screwing up the shots and really knowing the camera, really knowing the lighting. I mean, the experience was very, very important at the time and talking about expensive. So the digital photography was already a revolution. I am a big fan of experimenting with AI. 

I mean, I use meet journey. I use CHAT GPT. I feel like it's a tool. It's not the solution is a, is a tool that increase my creativity. So I'm welcoming all of this, my fear. And then, and this can be the follow up conversation. For the rest of the conversation is how is actually affecting, um, people, meaning don't you feel like it's taking away the experience, experience, experience factor from actually doing all this thing. 

So I know it's easier. I know it's cooler. I know I can put myself in front of the Tor Eiffel without ever being in Paris, but You know, where do we true, you know, where it goes between fiction and reality and how we distinguish from it. So, uh your thoughts on that on all of these just choose where you want to go  

[00:06:01] William Wu: I I think you're absolutely right. 

I mean there is an experience part of it, obviously that people Um, you know, we generally we see it's uh, probably I would say the older generation right really really value more um You know, I think, I think, I think the good thing about, you know, the AI is that it can help you experience, you know, just imagine you're someone who grew up in rural China, right? 

Who's never been able to have the opportunity or even be able to get the visa to go to Paris or the Eiffel Tower, right? Well, AI can actually help you to do that, right? Um, another example, let's say, you know, you've got a great photo of your grandma, but she passed away, right? And you don't have a photo of you two together. 

Right? Now you can put yourself next to your grandma and, you know, create that new experience. Now that's not, that's not, you know, that, that's not a taken by photo experience, right? But it is still very, very much an experience. Um, I, I think, um, the other thing to probably say is that it really depends on how you value, um, you know, what, what, what you're taking the photos for. 

And there's a certain, uh, portion of people who will absolutely, you know, you want to take photos. And again, a great example. Like I travel a lot and I go to Paris by myself, or like, let's say Africa by myself, but I don't have anyone to take photos of me, right? And so all my photos literally, you know, don't have me in it. 

Right. Well now, you know, I can take that experience that I actually went to, right. And use AI to put myself into the photos that I actually took. So I think, um, I think, uh, definitely, you know, there is a bit of, um, uh, that there is a real part, right. Um, But I think it, there, there's a lot of that AI can help enrich that experience. 

And then I think the other part to that is then, you know, there's a lot of people that don't take photos just for memories, right? A lot of times taking photos is about, you know, uh, showing something on a social media, right? Being able to, uh, social currency, right? And there you need high quality photos to, you know, uh, uh, post on there, or, you know, for example, it's, it's, um, you know, you're an influencer and you've got. 

50, 000 fans, right? And you can't, you just don't have time to like spend three hours a day taking photos for your fans, right? So we, we actually find there's a lot of different use cases for taking photos of yourself. Um, uh, yes, definitely the experience is one part. Um, you know, obviously, you know, it's great to take photos with your friends and do that. 

And I think that will still continue, but you, I think, I, I think the AI does help enrich a lot of that experience. And then on top of that. You know, it was a provide, uh, you an answer or solution for when it's when photo taking isn't about that  


[00:08:28] Marco Ciappelli: Right. No, no, I, I agree with you and I, I like to go to the extreme so that then eventually towards the end, we kind of see things from different perspectives. 

So I agree with the things you're saying. I think that the important part is as we are redefining. The way that we use technology, the virtual world, the fact that we actually know what is real and what is still real because you did it, but it's digital and it's a generative art. And I, I love that. I mean, I just created a new character for the AI that we use on ITSP magazine as kind of like the. 

You know, the interface with people to us, what kind of podcasts we have and so on. And, uh, you know, I wouldn't never be able to do it myself. I'm not, I don't draw, but I feel like it is my creation because I prompted the way I want it to. Right. So am I an illustrator? No, but I did it. Right. So, uh, totally cool with that. 

What is on your opinion? The, the, the, the, where we need to educate and draw the line when, especially with a new generation, and you're definitely a younger generation than mine, and there are some that are probably already younger than yours that are completely native digital. There's people soon going to be native AI distinguishing though. 

Between reality and virtual world, like being, really being there and being there, uh, virtually, which is great, um, if not everybody can travel the world, like you described. How do we educate these people? I mean, do you, do you just give them the device like we've done with smartphone without really teaching them how to use it? 

And, and how then the others say, okay, is this guy just. Making fun of me because it's really never been in Paris. Let's keep using Paris as an example, or is it just an artist that decided to create that image of himself?  

Yeah, I mean, um, uh, sorry, just to be very clear, your question is how do young people educate themselves on AI photos? 


educate themselves, or where we fail as an older generation to educate them when we... You know, when we introduced them to that kind of world.  

[00:10:54] William Wu: Yeah, it's super interesting because I actually think it might be the reverse, right? Um, you know, we, yeah, because, you know, when we look at, um, the people who have picked up AI very quickly, right, and use it and integrate it into their lives, it tends to be younger people. 

Um, now AI hasn't, I don't think it's got to like real mainstream. Um, there's still a bit of work to get to real mainstream because, uh, you know, I think a lot of the AI tools that have come out, um, call it in the last 6 to 12 months, right, still remain, uh, pretty difficult for, for, for, you know, someone 20 year old and likes TikTok to, to actually use. 

Um, but we've seen that the pickup is pretty, you know, the, the, I mean, this is a generation that embraces technology, right? And, you know, I mean, even though that a lot of them haven't actually used AI before, you know, I'm pretty much, pretty much. A lot of them have actually used it before, um, and they're very familiar with downloading apps, new apps and picking up and within, within a few minutes learning, uh, knowing exactly how to use it. 

Um, you know, I think, I think it's actually, yeah, very interestingly the reverse. Um, you know, when we, for example, talk about our project, right, what we find oftentimes it's, it's the, call it the 45, 50 year old, you know, older guy who's, Hey, you know, why would I ever use a photo, uh, a fake photo, right? Well, And, and, and, and, you know, that contrast very, very differently versus the young person. 

Wow. This is a tool that's changed my, um, you know, entire life. I've, you know, I've always needed something like that. Right. So it's, it's, it's actually quite interesting. We find, yeah, at least. Um, there's been, there's been much openness and greater acceptance with, with younger people than I would say, you know, some of the older generation, obviously not, you know, um, completely that, that's not to say that's everyone's like that, right. 

But generally, you know, in the conversation that we've had, that's, that's probably, that's probably been a trend.  

[00:12:40] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, and I'm definitely one of those that you described, you know, with the difference that I have always welcomed the new technology. I'm fascinated by it, but I still, you know, I like to distinguish, you know, remembering growing up with the analog, you know, the cassette and the, you know, the vinyl and behind me, but I'm, But I also use the digital world and I'm super excited about it. 

Um, one one thing I want to pick your brain in it's like we said we were going to talk a little bit maybe of Advertising and and if you talk about that nowadays is Influencer you mentioned tiktok There are a lot more and more Influencer that are completely AI generated. I, you are in Korea right now. I know there is some very, very big, uh, influencer there, even musician artists that are not really existing, but there have millions of followers. 

They have musicians, they, they, they, songs, acting and all of that. Your take on that and what is the pulse that you're feeling in the business and the advertising industry on this? Is it really the future or it's just a, 

[00:13:51] William Wu: Yeah. So, um, I think in terms of digital models, uh, that's definitely has, uh, seen, I mean, it's not something in the last 12 months, actually it's been around for two, three plus years now. Um, I think it has done well because obviously, you know, I think there are, there's a niche or a portion of the population for which a lot of our influences about the experience that you give to your audience base. 

Right. And sometimes that's. You know, I love, uh, you know, the blue theme dresses that this person always wears, right? Or I love this person's style of playing this instrument, right? But there's always a specific theme, right? And I think, um, uh, definitely, uh, digital, um, uh, uh, influencers do the same thing. 

Um, actually quite interestingly, I mean, um, you know, I would say, uh, a lot of the influencers that you see, let's say, for example, in China actually don't look like, uh, their real life. Because. The technology, um, across the world in terms of being able to put filters on your faces, right? And streamlining jaw and making your face much wider, making yourself look younger. 

And it's, it's incredible now. So I think, um, I think, I think, I think influences whether it's digital or not. I mean, ultimately it's going to have a person behind. It's more, I think on the spectrum of how much does that person look like the person sitting behind the keyboard, right? And, you know, a lot of them is like, uh, super real identical and a lot of them are, you know, Stretched out and very different. 

Um, so I think that's, that's, that's one part. Um, I, I, I definitely think it is one part. Um, I think in terms of where AI comes into this, um, I think the interesting thing for me in call it advertising is, you know, for the first time in history, you have this concept where you can actually license out your image rights. 

To a company like ourselves, right? That we can take those image rights and then we can actually go and, you know, take that and, you know, show it on new advertisement company, uh, advertisement, uh, or five of them at the same time, or even 30 of them at the same time. And you don't have to do anything. Right. 

So that's super interesting. It hasn't been possible before because to do a commercial shot, you've always had to show up. Um, you know, if you're a very busy K pop star, right, you still have to go and take a week off your life to go and fly to Hawaii and shoot the commercial. And I think what we're seeing is that now, okay, well, you can have a digital, uh, virtual model, right? 

But you can also have a digital... Uh, virtual auto of someone else, someone right. And take those rides and then sell those rides and, uh, generate revenue through those rides. And I, I, I think that's gonna be a very powerful tool going forward.  

[00:16:23] Marco Ciappelli: So I can see a future where we all have a digital twin and then we, you know, we either go somewhere, do something, or. 

We, we send a digital twin doing that and, you know, it'd be cool if then you use it in the metaverse, you use it for certain things. But again, I like the idea from, from a sociological perspective and psychological to always be able to recognize what is true. From what is true, but virtual because I, I think it's true. 

I mean, I'm a big fan that at this point, what we do online is reality. It's, I mean, I'm not definitely the one that says, no, if it's virtual, it's not real. I mean, we are having a conversation right now and I was talking to your avatar. I wouldn't be talking to you anyway, in a way. with some entities. So I'm, you know, I'm totally open for that, but there is the issue of again, knowing. 

So, uh, I'm going to pick your brain on, on a couple of things, which is kind of maybe connected. One is of course, the deep fake that generative AI can create artificial intelligence in general. I mean, it's very scary, especially for people that don't understand. Um, this, uh, technology works. And the other thing is, uh, the application of this technology that is kind of, you know, scaring people, let's look at the writer strike in the movie industry. 

I'm in LA, you know, I can see that all the actors are striking because of they don't want to be taken away and by their reproduction in a, in a digital. world. So you're, are we overreacting on your opinion to these or is it legit that people will lose job and people will be tricking believing things that are not real? 

And you can, I know there's a two questions, so start with one and I'll follow with the other.  

[00:18:20] William Wu: So I think in response to your first question in terms of deep fakes, you're right. It's absolutely going to get very scary. I mean, I think photos are probably there in terms of being unable to tell whether something's real or not. 

Um, and then in terms of video, we're probably 12 months away from, you know, video that looks identical, you know, and not, and not just, you know, a single video. This is like video with like, uh, being able to move and so forth. Just last week, actually, I saw, um, a company, uh, come out with a video where. 

Something where me and you were chatting, right? Look absolutely realistic. So, um, I, I, I think this will happen and it will get to the point. I mean, it's inevitable in my mind, right? That in the next 12 to 24 months, um, you know, or you cannot tell whether it's a picture or video, the difference between a real or not. 

And I think that's where. I think, obviously, I think companies need to follow, start following a standard for how they disclose and, um, uh, uh, you know, disclose and also, uh, put watermarks on, on all the content that actually create or comes out of that. Um, I think governments probably need to be very proactive about that. 

You know, to me, it's, you know, there's so many, I mean, you can just easily, very easily now call someone up. Right. And use someone else's voice and convince them that that person is, is you, um, using AI, right. Which is very frightening. And so I think, um, there's, there's, there's gotta be a, a, probably a big push by both governments and, and, and, and, and, and, uh, uh, corporates, right. 

To educate, to hold to standards, right. To make sure that, um, uh, uh, uh, people, uh, adapt and learn about these things as soon as possible. And in particular, I think when you look at history, right, generally, I would say, again, similarly, you probably have to do that or spend more time with the older generations, right, rather than the younger people, who tend to be very word of mouth, very strong, social, you know, lubricants and know a lot of people and everyone talks about it and they sort of get the gist just very quickly. 

Um, yeah, so I think that's, that's, that's probably, um. Yeah, how I think about the deep fakes. And then, um, yeah, sorry, can you remind me of your second question?  

[00:20:38] Marco Ciappelli: Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I don't expect you to otherwise I would start thinking you are an AI.  

[00:20:43] William Wu: It's 2am here in Seoul.  

[00:20:45] Marco Ciappelli: Oh, wow. Okay. So yeah, no, no worry. 

I'll refresh you. So we're talking about the connection between Uh, that, um, from a recognizing if something is real or not, which you covered and the other one was in regard to, uh, people losing jobs, uh, people being afraid about taking over strike in the movie industry acting, but also, you know, a lot of other, uh, jobs that may be taken. 

I mean, I'm personally like, you know, we've gone through these before to there's been like disruption, but, um, Um, yeah, your opinion on the, on the,  

[00:21:20] William Wu: no, absolutely. I think, I think, I think the technology will come where, I mean, I mean, AI will automate a lot of things. It's not just, uh, you know, acting, it's across the board. 

Um, obviously some industries will get it more affected than others. Um, and, uh, we, we, we also, uh, lots of jobs. Um, uh, uh, uh, but I think you're absolutely right. I mean. These technology evolutions happen in every sector, every industry, um, across every, uh, basically every period of time, uh, for, you know, the over the last 100 years. 

Um, and if anything, what you're actually seeing is that, you know, more jobs over time have actually created, right? But. Um, so I think that's what the data shows. Um, I think, uh, if you think just, for example, photography, right? Um, or even just, uh, photography, there may be no need to do certain shots because they can be automated by AI, but, you know, people need to. 

Be able to curate good images and they need to be able to prompt the images that actually created and, you know, uh, there's, there's, there's going to be, uh, different types of jobs that, that need that bit of upscaling. Um, so, yeah, I, I think, um, I think, uh, there are definitely going to be parts. I think whether you're part about overreaction. 

I mean, look, I think this is a very natural reaction. Um, uh, and, uh, and, and it happens in cycles, uh, in every economic cycle that's, that's, that's ever happened. Um, you know, my, my, my big push here is that I think the companies that are most affected. Um, that are at the pointy end of that disruption, they need to be, you know, I mean, in order, uh, you know, I would encourage them to be very open in terms of how they think about, um, uh, the next 24 months, right? 

And be adaptable to new business models, right? And I'll give you an example, right? Um, uh, we, we talked to a lot of modeling agencies, right? And if you think about traditional modeling, right? Uh, if you have like a, like a, your, your business is literally taking models and, Uh, Putting them on photos and taking the photo shoot and earning a margin off that. 

And you literally have 15 models sitting in your stable, right? Um, yes, you know, we, we, we've been on phone with a few of them and you know, a few of them have been, Hey, you're the big enemy and Hey, I shouldn't be talking to you. Right. But, um, You know, I think, I think, I think a few of them have been, okay, well, yeah, I, I, I, I, I think they have, they have had an attitude where it's been more, Hey, I realize this is going to happen. 

Um, you know, I, I, I'm not happy because it means, you know, my business is going to be disrupted and in 12 months, I'm not going to be earning any revenue. And for the last five years, I've already been, you know, uh, severely impacted by margins. But, you know, I think this is a great opportunity and, you know, I, I, I think hopefully there's a way we can partner together to, to work together. 

Right. Um, uh, and, and, and, and, uh, and, and make both businesses successful. Right. And a lot of times that actually works. Right. Because, you know, we've got this tech, right, but we don't have the model connections or the know how in the industry or the customer connections. And so, uh, that's where I think. For the, uh, for specific companies that are open to that change, right? 

They can get ahead of that curve, right? Rather than, you know, I think the worst thing is to, you know, see the entire industry change and, uh, uh, refuse to do anything different.  

[00:24:41] Marco Ciappelli: And that's, that's the big enemy. I love that you went there and I think we're going to, you know, start wrapping up the conversation with that, which is. 

Resisting. I don't want to use like a sci fi sentence like resist resistance is futile, but because that's about people, you know, like an alien community coming and conquer you in this case is about any time that somebody tried to resist like I don't want to use computer what you're gonna Your business is going to be affected. 

I don't want to use digital photography. Well, your business is going to be affected. So you need to be in a constant change. And, and I think there is still room for everything else. I mean, it's not, there is not the things, you know, it's just different. It is redistributed in a certain way. So I want to close with this, um, as a young generation, a young entrepreneur and, and business doing generative AI, do you think that because The regular photography, let's say it's called a regular, it's not going to disappear or modeling. 

Do you think there is going to be a different price point where what is real, it's going to be more valuable than what is digital or the other way around because the cost goes down? So from a business perspective, the economy of it, do you see a difference?  

[00:26:01] William Wu: Yeah, look, I, I think, I think, I think history shows generally when, uh, the production or the marginal cost of producing something goes very close to zero, the price drops very close to zero as well. 

Right. And so, um, you know, in my mind, I, I, I think, let's say, let's say, let's say you're a model, right, or influencer, right? I think, you know, The price of what you offer will very quickly to go to zero, unless you can offer something better than, than, than the other model. And generally, the only thing that I see that's probably valuable is, is, is your followers, your, your follower base, right? 

And so, uh, if you don't have that follower base and you don't have that specific niche, right? Um, the actual photo taking, I think that quickly becomes zero. And, uh, my, my personal view is that, you know, the, the, the peak, but, uh, you know, Call it 95% of modeling work will disappear the next 24 months, right? 

The 5% that remains. will be with the, call it the quasi celebrities, or celebrity models, or the, or the very, very strong influencer types, where there's still a demand to use their image rights for, because of they have this, this, this, you know, follow up, whether it's niche or broad. Um, so yeah, so look, I think, um, yeah, I think my view is. 

Generic model where it's just a pretty face or any face, uh, without that ability, uh, without that follower base, we'll, we'll, we'll quickly, uh, you know, approach zero. Um,  

[00:27:32] Marco Ciappelli: uh, being creative, right. I mean, being innovative, knowing how to change, try to give something new to your public, not just sitting there because. 

Yeah, you know and that that I feel like it's for modeling but also for business, you know It's nice if you get to a point that you don't need to do anything anymore, but it's very unrealistic  

[00:27:54] William Wu: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.  

[00:27:57] Marco Ciappelli: All right, cool. Uh, william, I know it's late out there. Um, I Enjoyed the conversation. I hope you did too and for all the followers Uh and subscriber of my show, uh, there will be notes. 

I will write a piece or Well, maybe CHAT GPT will do it for me. Uh, and uh about this article and there will be all the links to William so you can get in touch, learn about his business, uh connect if he wants to with his social media. So William again, thank you very much. And uh for everybody else stay tuned for another episode of redefining society podcast. 

Thank you.  

[00:28:36] William Wu: Thanks a lot.  

[00:28:37] Marco Ciappelli: Great talking to you. All right. Take care. Bye. Bye