Redefining Society Podcast

From Sci-Fi to Reality: are we prepared for AI's Impact on Movies and TV? Probably not. | “Once Upon A Time, Tomorrow” (E1) A Redefining Society Podcast Series With Recurring Guests Rafael Brown, Carey D'Souza, Sean Martin and Marco Ciappelli

Episode Summary

Social media is revolutionizing the AI-driven transformation of the movie and writing industries, shaping content creation, distribution, and audience engagement.

Episode Notes


Rafael Brown, CEO/Founder at Symbol Zero
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Carey D'Souza, CEO and Co-Founder at IAMPASS [@iampassHQ]
On LinkedIn |
On Twitter |

Sean Martin, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast [@RedefiningCyber]

On ITSPmagazine |


Host: Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast and Audio Signals Podcast

On ITSPmagazine |

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Episode Introduction

Social media is revolutionizing the AI-driven transformation of the movie and writing industries, shaping content creation, distribution, and audience engagement.

"Are we prepared for AI’s Impact on Movies and TV? Probably not." 

Welcome to a brand new series of the Redefining Society podcast, "Once Upon A Time, Tomorrow". In this series, a group of four tech enthusiasts, Marco Ciappelli, Sean Martin, Rafael Brown, and Carey D'Souza, embark on a journey exploring the entwining paths of society and technology. By delving into the past, they aim to shed light on the future implications of technological advancements.

In a world increasingly defined by digital footprints, Marco Ciappelli ignites our premiere episode with a puzzling thought - is the voice you're hearing genuinely his, or a creation of artificial intelligence? As we navigate the intricate web of reality and AI, Marco's playful musings on his constant podcast appearances underscore a broader theme: the profound impact of AI on our society.

Welcome to "Once Upon A Time, Tomorrow," a podcast series where past meets future, fiction meets reality, and where four curious souls, Marco, Sean, Rafael, and Carey, come together every month to discuss the interplay between society and technology. Whether it's the hum of the typewriter or the beep of AI, every tool tells a tale. Today's story? The symbiotic dance between entertainment and artificial intelligence.

Listen as Marco ponders if the voice you hear is his or a replica, as Rafael delves deep into the role of personal data in this AI-driven world, and as Carey wonders if AI serves as a tool or a replacement in the creative process. Sean? Well, he brings perspective from a cybersecurity standpoint, pointing out that with every tech leap, there's inherent risk, but also immense art and creativity.

Remember the old silent films and typewriters? They might be of the past, but their essence lives on in the present and potentially the future. Dive into this intriguing discussion on AI's influence in movies and TV, amidst the backdrop of ongoing actor and writer strikes. Discover the parallels with past technology shifts and uncover the implications of such disruptions.

But before we dive deep, don't forget to subscribe, share, and connect with us on social media. Let's ensure the past helps shape our tomorrow. Ready to step into the future while holding hands with the past? Let's begin.




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Episode Transcription

Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording as errors may exist. At this time we provide it “as it is” and we hope it can be useful for our audience.


[00:00:00] Marco Ciappelli: Hello. This is Marco Ciappelli, or is it? Because, uh, the little, there's a lot of weird stuff going on, uh, lately, uh, and by weird, I mean, artificial intelligence. So we don't know what is true anymore. We don't know if my voice is my voice. We don't know if me is me or my evil twin, which, uh, we had a good, uh, good episode with Shandi. 

The other day, but what I do know is that this is redefining society podcast. And because I got lazier and lazier in looking for guests, um, I started. A few series of returning guests. And in this case, I consider guests myself. I'm just saying this because I'm the kind of like the one in charge of this particular channel, Redefining Society. 

And what is Redefining Society? Nowadays, more than artificial intelligence, we all talk about it and, uh, some are more worried than other and, uh, probably the one that are no worry are not paying attention. So we're going in this serious with my really good friend that I'm going to let them introduce themselves very shortly. 

We're going to choose a Particular topic still related to artificial intelligence or some kind of advanced technology because we're kind of all kind of into this and, uh, and the effect that is having or had or will have on our society. And we have a common thread thread that is That we'd need to look at the history and in this way we can understand probably better the future So we call this series once upon a time tomorrow. 

And yeah, it sounds weird because we're kind of weird And so here we go Round of introduction for all the weird Interesting people that I very very happy to call friends and have this conversation with Sean Rafael and Carrie Um, who wants to start first with a little introduction? I 

[00:02:11] Sean Martin: think Raf does. Yeah. Raf's going first. 

[00:02:19] Rafael Brown: Hi, I'm a, um, game and, uh, uh, XR developer, um, uh, technologist who follows, you know, games, 3d AI, XR cloud, and, um, constantly, um, curious about how we can evolve and grow technology. So, I'll leave it at that. Carey?  

[00:02:44] Carey D'Souza: Hi, I'm Carey D'Souza. I am, uh, I'm a permanent lifelong learner, a technologist, um, always looking for interesting ways to use technology to innovate and build products that, um, seemingly enhance our lives or make it worse. 

I don't know what, one of the things we'll discuss in this podcast, I suppose.  

[00:03:07] Sean Martin: And I'm Sean, I surround myself with people who are way smarter than me. I have a little bit of sounding, uh, smart just by rubbing off. Uh, I typically look more at, uh... Cybersecurity, I, I look at things like a program, so getting from A to, A to Z, so everything looks like a project and is full of risk. 

So that's how I, how I'm going to approach this series, I'm sure, as well.  

[00:03:35] Marco Ciappelli: There is definitely risk. Uh, there's no questions about that, but also there is a lot of art, there is a lot of excitement, a lot of creativity, and a lot of things to be curious of, and that's one thing I'm very happy. Each one of you, it's extremely curious, and I think we're going to be very fair. 

We're kind of looking at problems from different perspectives. So don't, don't hold us, uh, accountable for maybe if we cross, it seems like we're crossing the line. We're really trying to be objective here. Uh, we've been told in the past other times we got together that we cannot go all over the places. 

So we decided this time to pick a topic still related to. AI technology arts and and society and and work around that and we we thought that um talking about the use of AI in movies and tv with all the strikes going on with the actors and the writers which at this point has been going for a while it arise really you know really good concern and it has a lot of parallel with what happened in the past so We can start it with what we were talking before and, uh, and I think Kerry had some points about few things that happened in the past that kind of help us to maybe pick into the future. 

So what was once upon a time in your head that could represent tomorrow?  

[00:05:07] Carey D'Souza: Well, I think, I think, um, just like every, every technological or any sort of advance that we've seen in the past has always put the existing state of technology or industry in a, in a bit of a loggerhead with the new technology. 

And I think we saw that with, I'm using very loose discussion. We saw that with very early on with The automobile industry displacing the whole horse carriages much later on. We saw the whole typewriter being kicked out by the word processes. Um, and then, uh, and then you saw that again in very recent times with the music industry where you had the record record execs basically ignoring, um, Um, of what, what was happening with the music industry, but even, even, and there was an intermediate period, the, the artists and the whole bunch of artists were absolutely phenomenal. 

You, you had bands, you had five man bands. And then you had, uh, you had a DJ who was mixing stuff and producing records on a laptop. So, you know, did it, did it, uh, I mean, honestly, non honestly, I mean, all of these were disruptive technologies and they are disruptive for a reason. They, they challenge our thinking, they challenge our way of thinking. 

Uh, way of doing things. Um, and for me, it is always a question of, um, are these things tools or replacements? And I think that's, that's, and given where we are currently, and given how, um, how the whole, uh, specifically the entertainment industry right now is at a bit of a loggerhead with the whole AI and the concern is unregulated AI is going to you. 

Potentially eat them out of livelihood and jobs and stuff. And do we want to look at it that way? Is it really going to do that or is it going to force us to be more creative and then use it as a tool, um, and maybe redefine our skills. And I think that's a question I would love to ask the three of you and see what, what do you guys think? 

[00:07:12] Sean Martin: Well, I'm going to go quickly. Cause you, you mentioned that the typewriter and I guess the point I'll make is new doesn't necessarily mean. Replace in my opinion, even if it, even if it's a tool that, that makes it way better than, than, than what it's replacing there, there's still horses. Of course, we're not going to. 

I'm not going to oop, and we lost Rafael, we  

just replaced him with a blank spot.  

[00:07:38] Carey D'Souza: We replaced Raf already.  

[00:07:40] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, we don't need him anymore. That's AI, bring the AI on.  

[00:07:44] Sean Martin: I'm going to, I'm going to guess, uh, the, the leave studio button was pressed over the button. Uh, I'll keep going and hopefully, hopefully, uh, Raf will join us again. 

The. The point I'm making is that new technology doesn't necessarily mean that old technology goes away or that I know we're going to talk a lot about jobs as well. Um, but I'm going to go, I'm going to go back to the, the typewriter because what I've seen, I actually sent Marco a picture of this. Uh, it's probably four or five months ago in front of the, uh, in front of the Met Museum, there was a guy sitting on the ground with a typewriter. 

writing custom poems on the fly. And, uh, he wasn't using a computer and who knows, I, I didn't, I didn't see a phone anywhere, so I don't think he was using anything to create the stories in his, in his head. So he was actually writing on a piece of paper and people would pay him to do that. The reason I bring that up is. 

One, it's interesting, but two, just last week, I saw, not him, but two ladies, with two of their own typewriters. Doing the same thing. And, So I don't know, I don't know if they're using technology, in addition to the typewriter. I'm gonna have to stop and ask him though, next time I see him. But the point is, they're using an old tool. 

To create something people, I don't know how many young people have ever seen a typewriter, right? But certainly folks who are nostalgic, uh, might, might want a story about their visit to New York and the Met and, and from somebody else's perspective written on the typewriter, which is... Perhaps cool and nostalgic, which goes back to the thing that I've said for many years that I often think that even though as new technologies come along, we'll, we'll hold a place in our heart for the old stuff. 

So I think, I don't know how many of us watch silent movies, but to kind of bring it back to the, to the movie, I'm sure that I've actually been to a concert. Where a group of players, an orchestra, played to a silent film. This was a couple of years ago, and it was really, really cool. There's another point... 

[00:10:10] Carey D'Souza: When there was games, I don't remember games where you would have a silent scene and then the actors would sort of depict, um, the dialogues and conversations. So that's kind of fun. But I think, I think the point, you're absolutely right. Um, Sean, that it does not replace it, um, it for lack of a better, it repurposes it, or it makes us rethink how we are going to use the older technologies in conjunction with the new tech and again, going with the typewriter. 

I was in San Francisco recently at a bookstore. And one of the highlights was there were three typewriters and they would give you free papers and you, you could buy a postcard and you could type out the postcard and they would mail it for free. So you, you could send a hand typed postcard to somewhere, um, from that bookstore. 

It's a great publicity and it's, it's, um, well, I, I, I did learn how to type on a typewriter. So for me, it brings back old memories, but it's also nice to get a handwritten note or a typed out note. Um, but you know that somebody has actually taken time to sit down and type it. So there's always going to be a place for that. 

I think the concern perhaps is, is it going to take over a majority of the way we do things and make that more of a niche thing? And so, uh, again, going back to the acting and the music stuff, would then, um, an actor become just more of a novelty situation versus Still mainline, but now he's using. Yeah, so I think that's where the and and I think there's a deeper discussion and raft pointed this out a little earlier about. 

Owning personal data and, um, and who owns it and how it's used, and I've got my own concerns about that in terms of what the output of that is going to be. So, um, again, Raf, you want to elaborate on that and talk about what you think, um, where the concerns. I mean, you've been talking to people in the industry. 

So where the concerns are coming from?  

[00:12:12] Rafael Brown: Yeah. Um, so I'll get to that in a second, but I actually want to start by just, um, by getting back to something core that you guys are saying, which is. The notion of extending or replacing. Um, it does a tool extend, um, the creators. Does it allow them to create more content faster or in a different way? 

Does it replace them? Um, I think that that it's a it's an important distinction. Um, because I think that most and https: otter. ai The production and the mediums, new mediums come into existence, but it's really important that we understand or even make a conscious decision when we want to extend and when we want to replace, um, and part of that is because when we are extending, there is an assumption that there is still work there. 

Um, when we are replacing, sometimes it means that work is being dropped in. Um, and the performers or the creators may not be able to engage. They're being replaced by something, but that something may not have the same level of engagement that they do. Um, and I want to just throw a really quick quote at you guys. 

This is from Isaac Asimov. Um, and, you know, Isaac Asimov is famous for writing every day. He wrote books, texts, he wrote constantly. And, and one of his quotes is, um, Writing to me is simply thinking through my fingers. Um, and, and the important thing to think about in the context of that is that, um, writing in particular, like when we're thinking about, 

[00:14:03] Marco Ciappelli: he has an enemy,  

[00:14:07] Carey D'Souza: I mean, don't talk against AI. I mean, it's gonna, it's there. It is watching us.  

[00:14:14] Sean Martin: What I see is a blank screen that we can put whatever we want in saying right there.  

[00:14:20] Marco Ciappelli: So for, for those, uh, watching the podcast with your ears. It's not that Rafael stopped talking and just literally disappeared in some void. 

So I think, though, I can start taking my opinion on top of that until it comes back. And I think that the problem here is that we need to be concerned about the people that are potentially losing the job. And the fact that, yeah, you're the copyright and owning your own image, I think it's very important. 

And I think that these people in the industry right now, what they're doing is they say, well, we're not there yet. If we don't take action now, we may be. Too late, right? So while I think  

[00:15:09] Sean Martin: we need to paint that picture for folks, I'm sure a lot of people have heard the news, but do we?  

[00:15:13] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. And actually, when, when, yeah. 

And when Rafael come back, I know he knows, uh, like a lawyer in the entertainment industry. And he was pointing out a few, a few things that may be in the, in the proposed contract. So overall, and I think Kerry can help me, uh, picture in this too, is the fact that the writers went on strike, uh, Pretty much a few months after chat, GPT got really popular and people got so excited about, Hey, Rafael, uh, get so excited about the fact that, wow, we don't need a writers anymore. 

We did so good in putting one letters after another that it sounds very human and it's very creative. You can do a lot of things and a lot of mediocre writer may lose a job. So obviously entertainment industry took, uh, took these as a, as a, as a good starting point and, uh, and thought million ways to use. 

Um, artificial intelligence and maybe save some money. So I don't know, I heard stories about having AI instead of being the tool to polish the job of the, of the writers, be the initiator of the writing so that then they can call the writers in and And clean up what ChatGPT have done, meaning that ChatGPT owns the original concept, which means no residuals and no ownership of the piece, which is honestly quite wrong, in my opinion. 

[00:16:51] Carey D'Souza: It is, but ChatGPT is any large language model. I mean, any LLM is built on prior data. And I think that's where the bone of contention is that it is not ChatGPT or any LLM. Is not using brand new data. They're using data and, and information collected, um, scripts and movies and dialogues that, and using that as a reference point. 

So, and I think you're, you're right in pointing that out, that the biggest concern, um, is that if I'm an actor, if I'm a writer, if I'm a voice actor, do I, every time chat GPD uses my reference and produces a script, do I then get. A cut off that or do I get and I think it would rightfully do that But I think the problem is that in an llm you have no idea when and where it has referenced it And so it just becomes super murky  

[00:17:46] Marco Ciappelli: true but but We also we personally even when we write our own we have reference in our mind. 

Everybody has bias Everybody has prior knowledge. So I think we're going We should go deep into into this, but to finish the big picture here is that as you can use that for the writer, and maybe, maybe it's not as good. Right now, but the point is what if become so good in 10 years from now, and we don't have a contract that protect us. 

So I, I give them that also just to add the actors, for example, is the fact that, and they are already kind of doing it, to be honest, I, I heard on certain movies doing it to have background actors that some of them, they make a living being background actors or, uh, Playing the waiter in a scene or the second policeman in a scene. 

They, they can go for one day instead of every day, they can get scan. And then, uh, they'll reproduce the scan image of their body. Anytime they want in any movie, they want changing all the costumes that they're wearing or through AI. And they never get a dime. Apart from that one day that they work, so I think we're looking at two very large extreme here that are,  

[00:19:10] Rafael Brown: but let's see, I think that we can actually bring it back to something and and this is like, there's a human process of creation, whether we're talking about writing or acting, but there's a human process that is more complex than what we can currently encompass in these. 

A. I. Libraries that were mostly being frankly being frank. They were scraped from largely English speaking content. Um, they represent a very actually narrow slice of human knowledge. Um, they represent things that were taken mostly from the web and they don't. Actually reflect a lot of corporate or entertainment knowledge that is still largely in, um, local or cloud repositories that is not on the web, but they also don't. 

They don't reflect non English speaking content that much. It's very heavily a particular chunk, and it runs the risk of saying these are um, Even if we go, Hey, we like these stories that chat GPT is coming up with it is stories that are coming from a largely English speaking content audience regurgitated back to them. 

And it's kind of, you know, it's basically like how many times do you want to reach you this food. It's It's a, it's a small subsection, and it doesn't reflect when you go, Hey, we've got an interesting group thing new, because the libraries that we are pulling from cannot reflect all the things that people could have read or could have experienced, and they also don't reflect when an actor goes on stage and they go, I'm just going to do this thing, and they come up with something new. 

There's still a lot that I can't do.  

[00:20:57] Sean Martin: If I can, let me ask you this. So that's, that's with ChatGPT, which is a public user interface driven set of data. But what about when the studio takes their massive library of videos and music, and if they own plays or whatever it is, all this stuff, they, they transcribe it into, into text in multiple languages. 

Um, and they match that with. With customer feedback and other information that they have within the company. So now it becomes private, but it's still presumably stuff that now they own the rights to. And then they say, I want a young Frankenstein mixed with Johnny Dangerously set in the year 2029. And that large language model that's built on GPT 4, uh, is using their data and create something different. 

They don't need a writer for that.  

[00:22:04] Rafael Brown: Yeah. And see, the thing is, the thing is that they're still going to get better results if they go to, say, um, NELP. 


[00:22:13] Carey D'Souza: I think, I think, yeah, I think Raf needs, uh, Raf needs to make his peace with what AI technology he's using.  

[00:22:24] Marco Ciappelli: Um, we'll take over.  

[00:22:28] Carey D'Souza: Uh, but, uh, to your, um, to your point, Sean, I mean that yes, you, your Chat GPT I mean, you look at Chat GPT GBT four, you look at Chat GPT, g b d, there any large language model. And for that matter, even if you look at, I mean, if you look at the, the, the synthesize or the, uh, the keyboards, which is called a library of sounds that in mixes and producers very similar, but the, at the end of it, I, I think it is still a tool, right? 

I mean, if I, if I could have, uh, If I could, again, I'm going to digress very slightly here. If I could, I love eating a steak, and if I could basically have prime Wagyu steak every single day produced consistently. I'll get bored of it within a week. I can guarantee you that. And I think that's probably what's going to happen with and no matter how many different versions of marinades you create It is still the core of it is still sake and there is a chance that that's going to happen with With llms because they can only use past past data to produce something based on the past There is no new innovative thinking or no new ideas being pumped into that and that's where I think That's where I defer slightly in saying that, in a sense that, okay, maybe instead of looking at this as a threat, we look at this as, okay, I've got these brilliant ideas and this actually helps me take those ideas and put them. 

At the same time, you want to be able to protect that. So, so it, it, I think that's where I, that's, that's where the line gets fuzzy. Okay, you've got brilliant ideas, you can do GPT 4, but once you use it, does it then become public domain? And if it becomes a public domain, then what happens to your, your specific brand of acting or writing or whatever skills you might, um,  

[00:24:13] Rafael Brown: Well, look, look at, look at the examples of, of, um, de aging of actors. 

Um, it's never about replacing the actors in forward of Indiana Jones, even bad examples of this, like Will Smith and Gemini Man, which is terrible deep in the uncanny Valley. But even in that, if you removed Will Smith from the, Equation. And you just said it's just a synthetic process. Then you don't have a actor bringing unpredictable things to the performance. 

The human is something that we don't know how to replace. And the AI can help assist that. But if you remove the human from it, it makes the thing worse. You know, like it makes it instead of it becoming, you know, Harrison Ford there, you get things like the, the AI generated Seinfeld, uh, thing that was up for a bit where it was a, a Seinfeld quote unquote, and it was like watching paint dry because it was just, they fed in, you know, all the episodes of Seinfeld and then said, make a thing like this with off brand characters and it's boring. 

[00:25:25] Marco Ciappelli: So, so here's, here's one thing, and then I want to also maybe drive this conversation more on the, the middle, which is, I think, the real problem is how you maintain the rights of people to their own persona, to their own persona. Art to their own voice and all of that. But I want to make a point, which is what you just said, Rafael. 

I mean, there has been a lot of crap in movies. There has been a lot of really bad TV and people watch it. So it's not at all of a sudden Chat GPT, GPT is going to bring us bad stuff. Let's be honest. There is some people love that stuff. I was going to say There's an audience for that. There's people who make a lot of money out of that. 

Which honestly, it could have pretty much been made with not even a chat GPT, but a photocopy machine. You know, it's like oh, this works. Okay, this works, this works. Is that good? Music too. I mean, are you making something to sell? You're going to compenize everything or you're going to make a masterpiece? 

Uh, there is, unfortunately, from my perspective, there is room for all of that. But obviously, if you steal the police song, you're going to pay for every breath you take.  

[00:26:46] Rafael Brown: Yeah. Well, of artists will be fine with saying, let AI tools create additional albums that I never made and, and charge people for it. And some people will listen to it and, and we'll be fine with that. 

And others will go, no, I need to actually create the music. But for some people, it will just be enough to see the artist's name on the thing that was, that was randomly generated.  

[00:27:12] Marco Ciappelli: Yep. So let's go back on the movie, though. Two things.  

[00:27:19] Carey D'Souza: Yes, two things, very quickly. So I think data driven development has been around for years, and I think we have, I mean, every writer reads books, every movie exec, every game producer plays games, looks at movies and says, okay, this works, this piece works. 

And I think, um, House of Cards, Kevin Spacey, the... The Robin Wright beautiful series made. But if you look at him, you read about it. They it was a lot of it was data driven. Even the opening credit music was data driven in terms of the figure of what creates that. So I think data driven development has always been there. 

I think the thing is that previously, if we use somebody else's data. We had the acknowledgement, we acknowledged them, we gave them the due, whatever, copyright or licensing fee or whatever, and we used it, but I think the fear now is that, one, data driven development has been automated at this massive scale, and two, you are not going to, post the first iteration, you are not going to, forget want to, you're not going to be able to pay the people whose data you've used, because it's using such a massive data set. 

So I think that's where it becomes, Um, that's where it becomes really challenging. And I'm all for if I wrote something and somebody else wants to borrow from it. Absolutely. But I need the credit. I need to the acknowledgement and the ownership still stays with me, right? So you can't, you can't borrow something from me and then claim it as your original contact. 

So that, that, uh, so that's where I think it becomes. That's what I think. I feel that what the current strikes have been all about that. Besides that, and the fear that okay, if that happens, then that's it. You are just writing one story and the rest. All the stories are being the studios or the big story Big enterprise companies are going to take over and they are going to start generating. 

I mean, there's nothing stopping a private equity firm from buying a whole bunch of movie scripts and saying, all right, we're in the movie business now. Um, so that's one part of it. The second part, which Raf mentioned very, uh, very nicely was that I think, Thank Even all four of us love music, love the entertainment, love the book, but I would never go and watch a movie. 

Uh, I might just do it out of curiosity, but if, if somebody tells me, Hey, this, this movie is purely generated by, yeah, there's no real actor who's acting it. Nothing is real, but it's all storyline is great, but nothing is real. I think we, as humans want to know that there was a, There was a process behind it. 

There were people who worked on it. There's a story. There's a, and I think that, that piece is something, um, people are missing and maybe the studio execs are missing that. Yeah. Can you make a Marvel movie with a whole bunch of stuff? I want to know that, um, hey, Chris Pratt was the actor was playing Star Lord and all of that stuff. 

So you want to know a bit more about their lives outside of the movie and how they, what they bring from there into these roles. And is that something we're going to lose with if, if it goes there? And that's where I think. Where we, we have to start looking at this as a tool. Maybe give Chris Pratt the, um, the AI tool and teach him how to, how to use it. 

And maybe he comes up with his own nuanced stuff and then he sells it to movie. I want to do these five movies. But I can only do one in real time, so I'm going to do bits and pieces and I'm going to sell you this stuff. So that, that potentially could be, I don't know. This is, again, we're talking once upon a time tomorrow. 

Maybe that could be tomorrow, right?  

[00:30:59] Sean Martin: I love the, I love that you went there because when you, you talked about somebody buying up, venture fund buying up a bunch of scripts and they become a movie company or production company. I'm just thinking back. On my own history, given your, uh, Chris Pratt example, where I've done multiple jobs, multiple functions to, uh, type on a typewriter like Raf is no, but to, to get different experiences and those experiences then shaped the next thing that I do, whatever that might be. 

And what I can see is. Where this tool, given it's a tool, uh, can be used by one or multiple people to create something that a single entity couldn't. So crowdsourcing a storyline, right? Where everybody's feeding a s a single instance of... Of, uh, chat GPT using the same memory key, whatever it is to say, this is my input into this story. 

Here's what I think the villain should do and be. There's what the, the hero should be and do. Here's what they're, whatever it is to help describe that. And then production process and the animation process or the voice process, whatever all the elements are. I don't know because I'm not in the movie business. 

But all those could be. Sourced, crowdsourced by either random people or selected people or, and then presumably they could have a slice of the rights to that if they're contributing. Cause I think one of the things that I, that I really take from. Cause Marco's much more into the, the prompting than I am with chat GPT. 

And I think how you describe it, Marco makes brilliant sense to me is that you're not just asking for something you're interacting and tailoring and tuning, and you call it art directing, which is the part that I really love. So one or more people coming together to art direct a large language model. I think could be really powerful, right? 

[00:33:16] Marco Ciappelli: You see, like, you're already thinking in a very creative, innovative way to use this technology. So it's like, here is a digital camera, I know you love photogRafy, and here is a film camera. Have fun with it. You're going to have fun with it. You're going to get creative with one or another, knowing what you can do with one what you can do with another and and and that the prompt Rafael was talking about that, that that with the art director that you were mentioning when we were preparing for this conversation, how we both agree that in order to use this. 

The AI in a correct way, or in a very productive way, you need to give the right art direction. I mean, you can have a vision that goes behind just putting letters and words together. Just reflecting on what they found. If you give something really unique and cool, I think it's going to come out with something unique and cool. 

I think you've got the... Well, see...  

[00:34:20] Rafael Brown: I was just going to say that... That like you guys have kind of got onto something which parts of parts of the industries are starting to realize if you create your own libraries, um, and and that could be a fan library. It could be a library of of data captured from an individual, like an actor or musician. 

But if you if you start, if you use the process to create your own library and you say, create from this. Then it's much easier to sit down and sort out copyrights and permissions and approval, but it also allows you to more concretely go in and go, we know what we're trying to make, and we're not going to get random hallucinations or unusual things that don't fit. 

Um, and so, yeah, it makes more sense to go, Hey, Pixar has been around since 1985. If they built out a library of have, you know, they have. The source in their depots that has that is not found in the films, but also they have resolution of data that is not in a blu ray. They have things that could build out that could allow them to create, but then they could decide where and how and. 

And they can do it without being kind of recursive and, um, but it's, it's important to kind of step back and go, think about the libraries to them. Think about what you want to create, because it's much more interesting to me as a creator to go, okay, um, if Disney wants to go off, you know, as an example and, and go, Hey, we want to have a range of, you know, like, Hey, let's take Tony Stark. 

Uh, Robert Tony Stark, we're going to take him in the studio. But if we go back to all the footage that we have, or going forward into the future, we do, we build a mocap library around an actor, and maybe we consistently do that and refresh so that we get a snapshot and their body scans every year. For a decade or two, if they're on board, and as long as there's compensation, you can then go, we now, it's not like, oh, we own this actor, but you can reproduce them much better if they are willing and they are compensated the amount of data that you can get to. 

I think that there's the Pollywood. To create a cloud, a cloud version of an actor that is very much AI assisted or created, but that still needs to be directed by that actor and probably is best. Is best served when it becomes like their digital double, you know, when it actually becomes a digital twin, which is very much an enterprise term that you can go. 

Hey, this is the Robert Downey jr. And, you know, or for example, you can then go. Hey, um, how about. We need this actor, but she's pregnant, or he's sick, can we get them, can we get their digital version for the next two months of filming, and then they can come in after that, if you can merge back and forth, because you have, it's extending again and not replacing. 

[00:37:50] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, but it's so scary to think it this way. I mean, I, I don't want to live in an artificial world. I mean, if, if Harrison Ford is getting old and it's doing 5, I don't, I'm also against rejuvenating his image. Screw it.  

[00:38:07] Carey D'Souza: I think rejuvenation has a time and place in the story. I mean, if you're doing a flashback, you want... 

[00:38:12] Marco Ciappelli: Yes. But, but no, because not, yes, you know what I live forever.  

[00:38:21] Carey D'Souza: I think we all want to live forever. Yeah, but they do in their movies.  

[00:38:27] Sean Martin: The digital duplicate that's living forever. Right.  

[00:38:32] Carey D'Souza: Not the original. Your deeds remain after you have left. I think that that's the, that's what I like to think. But, but a couple of things. 

I mean, one, um, I think what Raf mentioned, I think that could be very useful. And if I'm. If I'm an actor, if I'm, uh, if I'm on a movie which has a hectic schedule and if I get injured, now I can, I can basically say, all right, I am still directing my avatar, my digital twin to do all of these scenes and stuff like that. 

I still get paid for it. So, and the movie production does not stop. So they don't. They don't lose money due to stoppage of work, so everybody sort of wins here. So there is that bit. And then the other bit, which I think is being missed by people, and especially any exec who thinks that they can, they can own data and keep producing that stuff. 

A lot of the acting skills, a lot of the stuff that happens, a lot of the actors, the personality comes from what happens to them on a day to day basis, how they live their lives, and they bring that into their acting. That's going to go away completely. Right? And so. You are. You are not going to bring that. 

You are absolutely not going to bring that, um, that left those nuances, the real life nuances and experiences into their acting. Imagine, imagine watching Robert Downey Jr. 20 years ago and versus now. He's a much better actor now. He's a far more refined actor. You know, if let's say if AI has that capability of using. 

All Robert Downey Jr. footage and producing that we'll just see the old bad version of Robert Downey Jr. Right. So, and so that's the case. I mean, I think that is the big piece that people are not getting that. AI is a tool. It's not a replacement. Like Sean also mentioned, it's, I don't think it can be a replacement even for musicians, for writers, because it will never have the real life experience that we bring on a daily basis to whatever we do, whether it's acting or... 

[00:40:38] Sean Martin: The point of movies and film and TV is to entertain generally through a connection. And that connection is something that we, one or many people have experienced and can relate to. Loss of life, marriage, divorce, birth of a child, winning the lotto, whatever it is, right? So those experiences come through in the writing and the acting and the music score that's underneath it to help pull out those feelings and, and I. 

I don't think, probably not in my lifetime, that AI is going to do all of those things really well enough.  

[00:41:23] Carey D'Souza: But it has to interact with, it has to interact with, I don't know, it has to interact with other AIs and develop, it has to get scarred and beaten up like we humans do.  

[00:41:37] Rafael Brown: And that's the thing is, is like, we forget when we've got these predict, To models that are mostly going it asked for this thing. 

The client asked for this next to each other. And these are the most pleasing configurations of words or images that notion of a predictive model, replacing intentionality and agency. and collaboration in creativity is a bad thing for creativity because then it starts to get very just, oh, we're going to get the same thing we saw before. 

Another example I can bring up is, um, I was reading recently an interview with, um, Joaquin Phoenix and Ridley Scott, and they were talking about how they were doing Napoleon, and in that You know, keep in mind, like, they worked together back on Gladiator. Um, so they worked together 20 years ago, and they're coming back together. 

Joaquin Phoenix didn't know how to approach his role. And basically, two weeks before filming, he went to Ridley Scott and was like, I don't know what to do. And so, you know, Ridley Scott basically said, I sat down with him, and we went through the script, scene by scene, we talked it through, and we went back and forth. 

There was information that needed to be passed back and forth. And, you know, Joaquin Phoenix basically had like an actor's block, like, I don't know how to approach this character. They talk through the motivation, and they talk through what was central to the character, and they rewrote parts of the script. 

And, and that's the thing, is that people who are not in creative endeavors, it's often a black box, and they just think, oh, just. A thing happens just spit it out the back and forth in, in a team and a director or a writer and a director between a game team that's building something, a film team, there's an iteration that goes on there and that gets lost. 

And, and that's why it needs to be an extend, not replace because you need that creativity that happens in the moment when you're making things and that does happen every day. 

[00:43:46] Marco Ciappelli: I think it should apply also to the writing, right? Because what you mentioned, like, so I love actually to use the chat GPT, and I challenge it. Like I have dialogue with it. I try weird prompt and see what happened and I am never happy 100% of whatever spit out to me, right? 

But I can see a way to carve it around that, like it's helping. And I think that as we, you know, we're getting to the 45 minutes, which is not going to happen, we're probably going to talk another 10 easily. Um, I think we need to agree that this is all about. Agree on how people are compensated. This is not about not using a I. 

This is not about banning a I from movies and TV. This is this is about we know we're gonna use it. I think it's gonna be great. It's like, you know. We always refer to music, you know, electric guitar, a synthesizer that, Oh my God, you know, this is the devil. We need to use violins. And then you do an electric violins and the people are like, Holy shit, that's really cool. 

But we need to agree that this is probably a good thing if we can harness it. And this process here is about deciding how to compensate. The people that are being creative and not try to be greedy and try to think that AI can take all the jobs away. It'll take some, but I think it made us better.  

[00:45:31] Sean Martin: Or did the job have to change? 

[00:45:35] Carey D'Souza: I was going to say that the jobs that have to change, people will have to learn how to become more relevant. And, uh, in this, this new age of AI where that could mean, okay, I, now I just. learn how to become a better prompter and be able to prompt AI to take my vision and generate something for me and then sell that, right? 

So yeah, the whole point is not to take away livelihoods, let the people continue, but at the same time enhance Or give them another tool that they can use to continue building all that, um, while at the same time basically telling studio execs that you, you can't really just produce things automatically and expect the audience to love it. 

They might like it once or twice out of curiosity and the novelty value, but then it gets boring really quickly. The other bit, I mean, the other normal thought I had was like, let's say I'm a Harrison Ford or a Robert Downey Jr. or Chris Paddams, I go to studio execs and say, great, you want to use my private footage to create movies? 

Have at it, free for you. anything new, I'm charging you three times. So there you go. So you want new experiences? Great. I mean, it's sort of, it's got to be a some, I don't think it'll ever be a zero sum game, but there's got to be some way of compensating for it is data being used and great. It's automating a few things. 

So you benefit from it. So great do that. But anything new,  

[00:47:01] Sean Martin: let's be real as well. I mean, yeah, if somebody tried to make a new blazing saddles, it's not going to go over very well. It's not. I mean, things, things don't, things don't survive either. No. So, so old performances, old ways of thinking.  

[00:47:21] Rafael Brown: Well, and, and that's also, well, think of it also in terms of the character versus the actor. So one thing that I find interesting in this is that like people kind of assume, like, this actor needs to always play this character. It's like, no, we've had a bunch of different actors that have played Superman. Oftentimes, you know, it's Batman, Michael Keaton, Batman, like the notion of a new actor. 

Bringing something different to a character is valuable. Um, we don't need to always see regurgitations of that same actor playing the same performance of that same character, and it doesn't have matter if it's in superhero movies specifically, they often have very defined characters. But even though the Star Wars Han Solo movie didn't make as much money as Disney wanted it to, it was nice. 

I actually, even though I love Han Solo and I love Harrison Ford, I kind of like seeing a new younger character rather than like, here, let's take Harrison Ford at 70 and D. H. I mean, he's still moving like he's 70, but he's now got a younger face. Like, I don't want to see that. I actually liked seeing a younger, I think it was Alden, but, and, and, you know, I read recently that, um, Daniel Glover's is, is going, is developing a Lando Calrissian series. 

I love the fact that they're going to bring Lando back. And I thought that he did a fantastic job in the Han Solo movie. I want to see a new Lando. A new actor playing that character is... 

[00:49:02] Carey D'Souza: Yeah, I, I agree. I mean, sometimes you want to see some, some new, um, new faces that are sort of a, a new take on an existing story. And we've seen reboots and some reboots work really well. Um, it was coming with a fresh perspective, um, I think reboots that tried to just freshen up the acting and, and keep the storylines exactly the same tend to not do so well. 

So, that's the other, other bit, um, but the bottom line is, I think, I think AI is here to stay, we've got to figure out how to use it and use it to advantage, it's not going to take jobs away, it, it, if it, it, it, it, It is a tool. We learn how to use it. And, um, like every tool, there'll be people who learned how to use it and benefit from it. 

There'll be people who just decide not to do it and they will have a more challenging time to, to find work or continue working, I guess.  

[00:50:07] Marco Ciappelli: So the more we talk about this and the more stupid and tired. Topics and the entire issue sounds to me like, you know, there is an entire industry now that is not working and, you know, it's not just about the writers and the actors. 

There is an entire industry, you know, the people that work on stage.  

[00:50:30] Carey D'Souza: And yeah,  

[00:50:32] Marco Ciappelli: everybody and nobody is caring or giving much of a flying rats about them right now because it's all about the actors and the writers. But, but if we think about it, I mean, we know. That in within a few weeks, they're going to find an agreement. 

They're not going to stop the whole industry. Um, I'm wondering if, uh, the, the movie, uh, Purdue production company, they are actually owned by AI right now, because it seems so irrational to even think that AI can do everything and do it even better than the actors. It's like, do they really process this? I mean, all the things we spoke about right now, you know, the, the need of human. Emotions and feelings.  

[00:51:19] Sean Martin: And I'm going to venture a guess that there's a, there's a big four consulting firm in there talking about their 20 year plan and what they need to do now to prepare for that and what they will look like then and how the, how the staffing would change, how the training will change, how the tech will change, how. 

Legal change, geopolitical stuff will change and all that is, they're probably protecting their future by setting things up now, that's my guess.  

[00:51:49] Marco Ciappelli: And the others need to do the same, they need to protect their future even if now they're not in danger, they need, they need to do it, so... 

[00:51:59] Carey D'Souza: I'm going to vent the whole, uh, self driving trucks are coming soon. So what happens to all the unions that are moving heavy equipment for the movie industry and they'll, they'll be out of business. So are we going to go on a strike then too? Are we going to learn how to use these trucks too? So again, the point is like any new tool, um, we just got to learn how to use it and, and see how it serves us versus basically saying, Nope, this is the end of it. 

[00:52:28] Sean Martin: That's an interesting point, Kerry. Because. Presumably the two groups that we were talking about now striking have a pretty vocal loud voice. I don't know.  

[00:52:39] Carey D'Souza: Powerful media covers them more. They're more powerful. They're more, they're more in the limelight, but there's a whole bunch of stuff that is being automated very slowly. 

[00:52:48] Sean Martin: Right. And it raises, and I don't think we're going to answer this question now, but who has the power, who, who can turn those levers and knobs. To their benefit over others and which, which other groups are going to take the brunt when they don't have a voice or we get tired of talking about it.  

[00:53:09] Marco Ciappelli: So you go to the supermarket and you don't have an entire cart full, you got, I don't know, a bag full of stuff. 

I go to the automatic cash register. I don't have, how are you doing today? Um exchange a couple of words with the I mean trader Joe, they don't give me that option So I have to tell them how nice is my bag and what am I going to watch tonight for? A movie because they must ask me that question but the point is nobody is making a big mess again as you guys are saying about all the cash Register people that have been entertaining and talking to the older folks and, you know, and being part of your daily routine when you, when you go to the store. 

Um, but do they do now? I don't know.  

[00:54:02] Carey D'Souza: I mean, there's a lot of stuff that's being automated and I don't think creativity can be automated.  

[00:54:07] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, at least you got that.  

[00:54:10] Carey D'Souza: I think we can't automate creativity. We can't, to an extent, where people are. Consuming it the way we consume it right now. So I think the discussion needs to be more of, okay, if this is going to happen, how do we, what sort of skills are you willing to give us so that we can actually use this to continue working in the industry? 

And maybe that's a better discussion as opposed to do not use AI, because I think that's, that's a. That's a non starter. I mean, AI is already there, you know, so maybe a discussion. Yes.  

[00:54:42] Rafael Brown: I think the tricky thing is, is we want to allow new tools to come in, but you have to remember that, that it's not always. 

It's either cost effective or farsighted to have, um, AI replace the lowest tier of things. If it replaces the most junior positions, um, then You know, if you go, Hey, we're going to replace all of our junior writers with a I, how do you get senior writers if they don't start out as juniors because you never trained them? 

Um, then you're you have a dwindling population of senior writers, and you've basically, um, destroyed your recruiting. Um, so, so there's that. But there's also the notion that if the things, um, and we're seeing this in bits of Silicon Valley, where if you, if the things that AI are trying to do are incredibly menial, the likelihood is that the things that are trying to replace it with AI and robotics are being set up because someone's going, we should do, we should have, you know, like Google for a while had a robotics janitor program. 

And then they eventually realized, We'll never make this cheaper than just paying a human to do this. Um, there was a, there was a, a, a AI robotics pizza company, um, in, in, in Silicon Valley that went bankrupt recently. And, and it was because it's not actually cost effective to have robots making pizza. 

It's still just easier to pay humans. Yeah, eventually. Yeah. 

Yeah, but we forget that, um, the AI and the robots are not nearly as, as advanced as we think that they are. Um, you know, it's very easy to go, Oh, I'm hearing about so much in the news. And then there's a lot of hype. And then you sit down, you look at the reality and you're like, Hey, Yeah, it's okay. But yeah, you go to the grocery store and you're like, who cares about AI? 

And everyone's like, I'm just living life. I think, I think the growth is also the impact in a lot of industries is smaller than we realize.  

[00:57:03] Carey D'Souza: And it's there, it's already embedded in our lives and we've sort of gotten used to it. And I think. I think there is, there is, of course, the fear that it's going to be the, the development cycle and AI is getting exponentially faster and faster. 

But I think a lot of it is, there's a lot of misinformation about this, a lot of media hype. There is a lot of, uh, I think, I think you need to look past all the noise and go, go down. And even with the entertainment industry striking, we look past all the noise, look at what really is at stake there, um, and, and address that. 

I think we'll be in a, you'll realize that it's not AI that they're worried about. It's basically capitalists. Companies doing what capitalist companies do maximize profit.  

[00:57:45] Marco Ciappelli: I'm not worried about AI. I'm worried about people Exactly how they use AI that's my problem  

[00:57:52] Carey D'Souza: So teach them how to use AI I think at the at the bottom line is like I think every enterprise Right is trying to maximize profits and and they will use everything necessary and and as a human being you've got skills and you want to be able to use that to earn a livelihood and so you Want to protect that. 

Right. And so, and AI is in between that. So you got to figure out how to use it. So that both sides sort of metamorphosize.  

[00:58:17] Sean Martin: Time, time to market more releases faster.  

[00:58:23] Carey D'Souza: Yeah. Which might benefit the whole industry.  

[00:58:27] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I  

[00:58:28] Rafael Brown: mean, all right. What I will say is, let me jump in for one second. What I will say is that we are starting to realize in this process as the web and social media gets that personal data has value. 

And an individual data and collective data has value. Um, yes, I think we will create You know, a variety of libraries, but one thing that may come out of this is a sense of people trying to better understand that they don't have to, uh, give their data away, um, whether or just personal. I'm doing stuff and I'm posting it, but Finding ways to gather people's data and then negotiate with companies, whether they are creative or tech or otherwise, uh, and, and trying to be a bit more secure about our data, um, because we're starting to realize that our data has value and companies want to gather that data, whether it's individualized or aggregate, it is useful for people to Connect their data to their identity to start to understand that they have an identity and a footprint on the internet And to then try to find ways to barter their data their creativity their identity out to others and hollywood I think is going to push into this a lot of us because there's It's likely a price put on that data sooner than for many others, but eventually probably for everybody. 

[01:00:05] Marco Ciappelli: Yep. And I think we're gonna end on that note. And I hope that this is a very important lesson. I mean, having this conversation like they're happening. Not only in the tech world, not only in the cyber security, not only in the advanced technology company, but seeing how it's applying to everyday job, even the most creative of the jobs, I think it's really, really important to prepare us for has to come and it's going to be fun. 

I mean, it's going to be pretty crazy and I, I think it's going to be fun. Every other conversation that we're going to have, hopefully, um, Rafael AI is not trying to take you down next time as much as they did on this, on this episode, but, uh, still a great conversation. And, uh, I say next time, um, stay tuned because we haven't decided what we will focus on, but, um, I'm guessing music. 

What do you guys think? Any vote books.  

[01:01:09] Carey D'Souza: I mean, you name it. I mean, technology. I'm happy to talk about anything.  

[01:01:14] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, any any kind of reference with society will be great. So thank you very much for joining. Let's let's do music next. 

I think this is a good crowd to talk about that for sure. So everybody stay tuned. I promise 45 minutes it didn't happen. So I hope you enjoyed the conversation. I hope you enjoyed the fact that we did our best to stay focused on the topic. I know we went a little off here and there, but that's who we are. 

We're having fun and we hope. You hope you did too. So stay tuned, Redefine Society podcast, Once Upon a Time Tomorrow. Notes, links to connect with us on social media will be exactly in the notes. Subscribe and you know what? If you get in touch with us on social media and you want us to chat about something specific or you have comments on what we spoke about, uh, do so. 

I mean, we, we want this to be a two way conversation and, uh, I say, everybody say bye and, uh, we'll see you next time.  

[01:02:27] Carey D'Souza: See you next time. Pleasure, gentlemen.  

[01:02:29] Marco Ciappelli: Take care, everybody.  

[01:02:30] Sean Martin: Peace out.