What if you could live forever — sort of? In this episode, Bruce Y. Lee and I meet at our usual bar to explore digital immortality, algorithmic relationships, and what makes a person… well, a person. Star Trek, deepfakes, AI therapists, and dead celebrities all make an appearance. Is it still you if your clone outlives you? Let’s talk.
Guest: Dr. Bruce Y Lee
Senior Contributor @Forbes | Professor | CEO | Writer/Journalist | Entrepreneur | Digital & Computational Health | #AI | bruceylee.substack.com | bruceylee.com
Bruce Y. Lee, MD, MBA is a writer, journalist, systems modeler, AI, computational and digital health expert, professor, physician, entrepreneur, and avocado-eater, not always in that order.Executive Director of PHICOR (Public Health Informatics, Computational, and Operations Research) [@PHICORteam]
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/bruce-y-lee-68a6834/
Website | https://www.bruceylee.com/
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Host: Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast
Visit Marco's website 👉 https://www.marcociappelli.com
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We’re back at the bar. Bruce is here, the garlic took the day off (too young to drink?), and we’re talking about something that’s not science fiction anymore — the idea that your digital self could outlive you.
Yeah. Living forever. Or at least… being replicated forever.
It starts with a hologram of Princess Leia and ends with people in Japan marrying bots. And in between? There’s a messy, fascinating, unsettling space filled with AI companions, algorithmic flattery, uncanny valley doppelgängers, and the very real possibility that we’re confusing memory with simulation.
Bruce brings up Star Trek — of course he does — where Captain Kirk debates a machine version of a long-dead friend who insists he’s still the real deal. Spoiler: Kirk says no. And I get it. But what if that machine knows everything I’ve ever posted, recorded, written, liked, said, or searched? What if it feels like me?
Would you want to talk to it?
As always, our conversation doesn’t offer a final answer — we’re not here to draw lines in the philosophical sand. We’re here to hold up a mirror and ask: is that reflection still you if it’s built out of pixels and training data?
This episode is personal and playful, but also incredibly relevant. Because we’re already building legacies we don’t fully understand. Every photo, every search, every rant, every laugh — it’s all on the record now. Our historical memory is no longer dusty boxes in the attic; it’s a neural net waiting to be queried.
So yeah, one day, you might be sipping your espresso while a synthetic version of your late uncle offers you advice, cracks a joke, and asks if you still listen to that one podcast.
Just remember what Captain Kirk said: that might look like him, sound like him, even think like him — but it’s not really him.
Still… it’s a hell of a conversation.
So join Bruce and me. Pull up a virtual stool. It’s Season 2, Episode 3. And no, that laugh you just heard isn’t AI-generated — not yet.
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Keywords:
digital immortality, AI relationships, uncanny valley, chatbot therapy, synthetic identity, Star Trek, brain uploading, holograms, emotional AI, algorithmic intimacy, digital clone, memory simulation, techno-sociology, posthumanism, virtual consciousness, AI ethics, social engineering, digital legacy, artificial friends, future of identity
See You Next Time
You'll find links to connect with Bruce and explore his incredible contributions in journalism and medicine. I promise you; he's just as insightful and entertaining as he seems in the series. So, see you next time – same bar, same garlic, new topics!
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Resources/References
The Singularity Is Nearer: When We Merge with AI
by Ray Kurzweil
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Marco Ciappelli: [00:00:00] Hello everybody. We're back. We are in the usual bar, Bruce, I, I see the garlic is not here today, but you are in the good old bar where we used to meet all the time.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: Yeah, the garlic took off today, kind of rudely that, that kind of stinks, but you know,
Marco Ciappelli: kind of stinks. Yeah. Also, maybe too young to go in a bar.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: Uh, I don't know. You know, you know these garlics these days, you don't know what they're doing.
Marco Ciappelli: A fake, fake ad.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: Yeah, exactly.
Marco Ciappelli: They'll take care of it. Uh, the bar reference still works for me because, uh, it's a carbon, a silicone, and a cell. Walk into a bar. And, um, today what they're gonna do, it's beside, I don't know, drinking, I guess, and saying hi to the bartender.
Um, guess they're gonna talk about digital immortality and [00:01:00] ai or bots relationships. So it's, it's, uh, it's a lot going on there I can see happening in a bar. I don't know, kind of like the cantina in Star Wars, where instead of, uh, aliens, we, we actually have robot, which there are already there. And, uh, I don't want to even think about what's going on there, but, uh, that could be the future.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: Yeah. You know, speaking of Star Wars, you remember the, uh, civil years ago where there was a bit of a controversy where they had the, um, sort of the, the, uh, the Princess Leia character that was digitally created.
Uh,
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: and you know, that was, you know, after un un, uh, Kerry Fisher's unfortunate death. Uh, and some people were wondering about that.
And, you know, the, whether you're gonna see like more and more characters or representations of people, uh, kind of forever. Um, and so, yeah, that's an interesting question.
Marco Ciappelli: It is an interesting [00:02:00] question and, and actually what made me think what you just said is in the first ever Star Wars, we see Princess Lee as an hologram coming out from R 2D two.
So it's kind of like going all the way around. She started as an hologram and then she ended up making a cameo. Yeah. Uh, with digital ai, which is a big conversation in the, in the Hollywood world, um, I mean, they all strike. Few months ago was all about using of AI and, and, uh, and who has the right of an image.
So the question here may be, if, if somebody recreates you or decide, or you decide to create a, an AI character that represent you based on the things that you say, the things that you do, your social media history and everything, is that, the big question is, is that really you or not? So. I don't know. How do you feel about that?
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: I remember watching a, um, a comedy, [00:03:00] uh, sketch or a skit, or maybe not a skit, just a, a, a standup, uh, from, um, nor McDonald, uh, you know, that the, uh, comedian and he was talking about how, you know, it used to be that you have, uh, you know, maybe one or just a few, like yellowing pictures of the, your great grandparents.
And those like are precious things because those are only like kind of record of people in the past. And so you'd say, oh, you know, would you like to see these, uh, photos of your great grandparents? And he was joking that in the future is like, uh, you could say, would you like to see these 1,860,000 photos of your grandparents?
Because you know, we're getting increasingly to a point where everything is being documented. Basically, right. So, you know, people, there's that whole talk of nowadays if you're growing up nowadays it's very different from [00:04:00] what it was like before where, you know, during the awkward times when you're growing up, people could be filming you on their phones or you know, you do something very embarrassing in high school.
And, uh, you know, all of us have done embarrassing things in high school. Um, you know, that gets immortalized and then that. It will continue throughout your entire life. So it basically, everyone has this digital record
Yep.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: Of what you say, what you talk about, uh, how you act, and those things like that. And then, of course, uh, so that alone will, uh, add, you know, some degree of, uh, perpetuity with, uh, with what you say and do.
And then certainly with the further advent of different types of computational approaches, those can be stitched together even more. Uh, in different ways. So, you know, you stitch together photos, you can stitch together the videos. Um, you know, you can tell from people's social media posts what their personalities are like and those [00:05:00] things like that.
Um, so it's an interesting time, but it also is fraught with some interesting challenges too.
Marco Ciappelli: Definitely. And, and it make, it, it made me rema remind the, the time that started to happen was when. We start figuring out, maybe it was in, in the 2010, 12, something like that, where HR company post interview, they will go and as part of the process, go and check your social media account to see if there was something embarrassing about you.
And that's when people start realizing. Whoops. And then there were cases when picture of kids. I remember there was a couple in France that were sued by the now teenager, uh, daughter because apparently, you know, she's been immortalized as she was growing up and said, never give my consent to that. [00:06:00] And so a lot of things happening.
I think the difference here is one thing is you do without realizing. Now you actually have the option to say, well, what happened to my digital legacy once? You know, my physical me goes, right? Mm-hmm. And I have a quick example here of how. Sometimes you, you don't realize that I was talking in Australia to a cybersecurity conference and covering it and one of the talk was about this guy from the government that, um, I.
We had an experience where an older relative died and they thought there was something going on. Maybe he was in touch with somebody that was scamming and asking for money, and they were not sure if there was still an open bank account somehow that the money was still funneling towards [00:07:00] this person. So, yeah.
He had to pretty much take the responsibility for the family with the legal, uh, with the lawyers and pretty much go and, and research and hack the accounts and figure out what's going on. Now. That's the motive, but then it comes with a lot of situation. Where do you wanna know? Everything that you're gonna find out once you go start somebody's computer or when you go start somebody's social media and where you draw the line between what is private, don't know, like before, as you mentioned, could have been the box of here's the box with the keys, the documents, and some pictures, maybe a medal from, uh, world War ii.
Yep. And, and that's it. That's what I know about, you know, my grandfather per se. Mm-hmm. And. And now it's your life. Now, in [00:08:00] this case, this person didn't even realize probably that he was leaving all these trails.
Yeah.
Marco Ciappelli: But now you could do it on purpose and you could say, I'm gonna do this because then I want my AI to live forever.
Kinda like Highlander.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: It reminds me of, um, you know, the Star Trek, the original series. Uh, there was an episode where, uh, there was this leader of this world named Landro Landro. I think Landro is the name. And he would sort of like govern the whole world and, uh. You know, tell 'em what to do. And, and, and you know, they were supposedly peace, but he was very kind of aggressive on how he, he organized things.
And then it turned out, you know, as a typical kind of Star Trek, the, you know, captain Kirk Spock. Then they kind of saved the day and then they revealed that it's actually, Landry was actually a computer [00:09:00] that basically took someone land, Andrew, who really existed years before, but like. Was long gone and they basically used this guy's image and kind of, you know, emotional imprints and behaviors to kind of mimic like an actual person.
And, and you know, in the penelton scene, you know, captain Kirk revealed to some of the other people there. This is actually a computer that's running all you guys. And then of course he out foxes the computer as Captain Kirk does. Uh, and then that's the end. But that's interesting because you're talking about a TV show, you know, once again in the sixties that is very, was quite prescient.
You know, they basically, for Saul, some of these interesting challenges and so you could see where people potentially could use. Uh, you know, all the digital assets or whatever you want to call it, of a person to recreate the person or keep that person [00:10:00] going for a variety of different reasons. Um, so yeah.
Interesting. Uh, what, what's, what's the word that, uh, uh, life often mimics? Fiction or what, what have you
Marco Ciappelli: Oh yeah. It's a fiction stranger. Um, reality, stranger fiction, reality,
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: stranger than fiction. Yeah. So, um, yeah, no, there's, there's definitely different possibilities. I mean, if you, you look at it many times in forensics too.
They try to use, um, uh, people's, uh, social media postings and those things to try to figure out, uh, what the person's motivations are, what they were doing and those things like that. So that, that's common these days. Um, and, uh. And also because people, when people interface with technology, it's interesting when people interface with technology, sometimes they're actually more open to talking about their true feelings than they are with other people.
I. Right. So they, they, you know, they look at the [00:11:00] computer and they think of the computer. And, and especially now when you can actually interact with the computer, right? With mm-hmm. With, uh, with different AI approaches, you feel like you're, you feel like you're talking to someone and that person can be, feel like a confidant.
And then you're, you're, you're doing these things or social media, you don't, you don't think, alright, I'm gonna put this photo of me. Funneling some beer on the social media platform. You think I'm just putting it on the computer, but you don't realize you're potentially sharing that with like 17 million people or whatever.
You, you don't think about that, but, but uh, yeah. So then, then, then there's all this stuff out about people and, and it, it's interesting how it's actually can be used in the future.
Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. I think we are in a transitional period where we, we still think. Kind of pre. Mass, um, surveillance and, and social media and all of this.
And, [00:12:00] and I even people like me and you that are always looking at technology and AI and talk about, I talk about social engineering all the time, which now we fake, you know, you could pretend to be someone else and, and it, it happened and it's very realistic. But then you're sometimes, you know, like you go in the store and you're like.
Um, yeah, there is probably camera all over the places looking at me. What am I doing? And, and if I'm holding, uh, you know, this, this piece of clothing a little too much, then am I gonna get an ad?
Yeah. With
Marco Ciappelli: a discount on it. 'cause they're actually scouting everything that, that, that I do. And, and I'm like, yeah, obviously technologically speaking, that's completely feasible and it's probably happening.
Right? And, and, but we still think that we're living our, our life as private as, as we can. Yeah. Um, so going, going back, I still remember,
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: I still remember I was, uh, [00:13:00] writing an article about. Animals and different animals that were spreading food. Uh, not foodborne, but uh, different types of, uh, outbreaks.
There were outbreaks that were related to different animals. Some of these animals were very, very cute animals, and, but they, you know, people caught bacteria, different types of pathogens from them.
Mm-hmm. Um,
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: and then I wrote an article about, um. Uh, farts because, uh, you know, there was some concern. This was during a pandemic during early parts to pandemic.
People were concerned about, uh, maybe catching COVID-19 through farts. And I was trying to explain that. Well, that's the likelihood of, that's probably pretty low. Um, and then, you know, to do some background stuff, I did, did, uh, look at some of those things. And then I noticed that on YouTube. All these videos of animals farting were coming up in my feed.
So obviously
the
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: algorithms were figuring out that, you [00:14:00] know, you like animals and you like farts, so yeah, yeah. Here's what, here's what you really may really like. So,
Marco Ciappelli: yeah. Yeah. And, uh, and, and as, as much as they can not contextualize it before now, they can actually probably. Make some more correlation, maybe realize that you did write an article about it and maybe it wouldn't happen now because it's so much more advanced that it's probably true to to reality.
Yeah. Um, I think, I think the big question here is when, when we talk about these things, it's, it's inevitable how. It, it's all about human psychology, right? I mean, this relationship that, that teenagers are, are building with, with friends that are shot robots and people I think in Japan are already marrying legally, uh, some AI entity.
Um. And, and how you mentioned this thing [00:15:00] that when you are talking to a computer, you feel like you can be even more open than when you're talking with your psychiatric doctor. Mm-hmm. And it's, it's amazing how it just sounds so natural language now. Like I talk to Chad GPT on my walk. Sometimes I even do research while I walk the dogs and, and I put my headset on and I'm like, all right, go find me information about this person that I'm going to interview or this topic that I'm interested in.
And now you can interrupt it. And then you have this very, you know, pals and laugh and smiles and things that like this little details that kind of make you forget that. You are talking to, to an ai and I, I, you know, I get like, I'm like, bro, you know, what are you talking about?
Yeah.
Marco Ciappelli: Uh, I dunno. Do you do that as well, or, or am I a little bit crazier than you?
Yeah.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: I don't know what you're talking about. No one [00:16:00] does that now. Yeah. Yeah. You, you, you, uh, you see and hear and. You know, uh, how people refer to chat GPD or interact with chat GPD. It's, it's not like, you know, the, the, the, the way people talk about chat, G pd D is, is like a person, oh, I asked chat gp, PD D and I say, oh, it's chat PD mean a joke or tell me like that, you know, it, it's so, so there is that blurring of reality.
Um, that is, is occurring more and more. Um, and, you know, uh, you, you, I I, you may have seen these on, you know, one of the things that become quite more and more popular, like on YouTube and stuff like that, is people will create these, you know, AI generated movies. Um, you know, and, uh, they're looking more and more like.
You know, real characters or real people, or sometimes real actors, like, they'll, they'll say, oh, [00:17:00] let you know, create a movie with such and such actor playing this role. Like it's a new role that the actor never played. And then, you know, if you looked at it and you don't look at it carefully, you might think that it's, that actor's actually playing that role.
So, so, so the reality is getting more and more blurred, um, and it's only going to get more and more blurred over time. '
cause
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: as things, I mean, you've, you've, you've obviously heard of the, uh, uncanny valley, right?
Marco Ciappelli: Oh yeah.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: Um, so it's one of
Marco Ciappelli: my favorite topic.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: Yeah. And, uh, you know, uh, if, if you go back, what, 10 years ago and look at some of the, uh, you know, computer generated, uh, people and characters, stuff like that, the whole idea is it, it can look a little creepy, right?
Because it's not. It's real, but it's not really real. Um, but that's gonna, that's gonna change over time. Um, and
Marco Ciappelli: borderline that, that's Dan County Valley, it's not, when [00:18:00] is clearly not true? Yeah. Like you can tell like old, uh, Godzilla movie, you know, uh, versus something that is like, yeah, it's, it. I can tell it's not real, but it's, it's scary.
Getting there. Scary like that, right? Yeah. Uh, yeah. And, and it, it kind of start feeling like that. And I think it, the time it's, it's really the, the timetable. It's so much faster now that than what it used to be. So here's the thing, like I can think about a lot of people from the past that I wouldn't mind to have a.
A conversation, AI with
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: mm-hmm.
Marco Ciappelli: Carl Sagan, um, maybe Asimov just to stay in the sci-fi and and astronomy world, but you know, why not, uh, Socrates? Or why not have a conversation with [00:19:00] somebody that has all these knowledge that we can collect? It probably wouldn't be the personality, but if you could then do this with somebody that has been into.
Uh, video interview and podcast and wrote book, I feel that it could probably get very, very close to that person. Would you want to have a conversation with someone that is an AI reproduced based on a real person?
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: Yeah, that's an interesting question because, and this is, this is part of the larger question with ai, uh, you know, what's really actually under the hood?
Um, so you know, how much of that person is it really actually capturing? Um, so for instance, you know, one example is, you know, when you meet like a celebrity or something like that, that's a celebrity has a, a public face. Yep. [00:20:00] But you know, there's many situations where, you know, sometimes the public face is similar to the, the private face, but then there are also many, you know, here, here many stories about how behind the scenes, they're very different.
Mm-hmm.
Marco Ciappelli: They're not the same person. I love that. That's a great point. Uh,
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: so, you know, does the ai, uh, algorithm or, or, um, construct, capture just that surface versus like what's actually deeper? Um, and you know, if you think about it. What makes relationships human to human relationships really meaningful and deep.
It's when you actually know the person very well, not just the superficial stuff. It's like when you've gone through all kinds of ups and downs and you know what they're really like, and you know, many times you, you revel in sort of the imper imperfections of people, right? When you interact, but you don't necessarily want a perfect person around you.
You want someone who's, who's human. How much of that will be, you know, the case [00:21:00] with computational AI generated stuff? Mm-hmm. Like if you're gonna have a conversation with, I don't know, uh, Socrates. So at this point, any computer generated Socrates, I think has a decent. Probability of being inaccurate, right?
Because we have a historical record and that's how much we know about soccer is, and we know how history works, right?
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: Probably did not capture, uh, if, if I think I believe, uh, Instagram was not around, I. With Socrates, but I'll have to double check on that.
Marco Ciappelli: Uh, no, no.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: Yeah, I don't think he was in any tiktoks they say so, so we don't know what you, it was
Marco Ciappelli: Insta sculpture at the time.
INTA
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: sculpture. Yes, yes, yes. It was, it was tick rock or something like that. Yeah. So, so whatever reconstruction of him is gonna be based on limited historical record. Yeah. Which may be idolized or may. Idealized or may not be. [00:22:00] So I would say like an I AI generated version of Socrates, probably less interested in that because it's really gonna be sort of a compendium of what's known about him.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: Historically, I mean, it might be interesting based on, you know, something that's based on his historical record, how that would respond. But there, there is. There's some limits. You know, I
Marco Ciappelli: can, I can see based on what you say, which make complete sense, it's, you could use it as a, as an educational tool.
So you're studying philosophy and all of a sudden you get to talk and ask question directly to, uh, plateau and Socrates and, and, and other that. But, but he is a, he is a tunnel. Knowledge. Right? Yeah. It's a, it's a specific silos knowledge based on their books and their education. And, and you're not, as to your point, you're not really talking to Yeah.
That person. That, that makes total sense. Yeah. [00:23:00] Um, I think it could be different though, if you could have access to, to their social media. I mean, our public figure, even if it's public, considering when we go to the store, it may not be. Our private life. I mean, we always wear different masks no matter what.
Right? Yeah. Even if you're not the actors or, or the celebrity. Um, but I think that with social media, I. And you could definitely get a much better picture than, than that, than than a Socrative. Of course.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: Yeah. Yeah. No, I think it's gonna, it's, that's gonna change because again, our, our historical record and just to start off the conversation today, you know, our historical record is changing
Mm.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: And now have a actual, more accurate and more extensive historical record of everyone, whether, whether, whether people like it or not. It's, mm. It's all, it's all there. It's been collected many different ways. So, [00:24:00] um, so yeah, I think if, if you were to generate a, a computer generated version of someone today or someone in the near future is gonna be very different and from one years ago.
Um, so that would make things interesting.
Marco Ciappelli: And I think the question there is, well, I, I think when you wanna really go into. Uh, when, when we started all this series of conversation, what I call season two with, with you is it was based on the, the singularities near by Ray Kurzwell. Mm-hmm. Where, where he talks about uploading your own brain.
So it's not just a reconstruction, but it's actually you take your own brain, you put it on a computer. And that's you. And, and the question there is, is it really you? It's is another you, you know? So it gets really philosophical there. And in that case it probably, if it was [00:25:00] possible, which may, may be soon, um, would be ethically good to do.
Would people wanna do that? Would people wanted to talk to someone knowing that that person is really you? But it's not. Really you who, who is who?
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: Yep. So, you know, I have another Star Trek reference for that. There you go. Because I, I have a Star Trek reference for, um, there was an episode, uh, in the original series again where, um, so, so Captain Kirk and Nurse Chapel beamed down to this planet Earth Chapel used to be.
Romantically involved with this guy. I believe his name was Dr. Roger Corby. And, uh, you know, along the way they find out that one of the things that he's been doing is he's been creating these robots, replicas of people, and then basically transferring copies of people's consciousness into these robots and the [00:26:00] robots look like.
So he created a, a robot version of Captain Kirk that had the same behaviors and all these things like that. And at the very end of the episode, the, the big, uh, penultimate scene is when it's revealed that Roger Corby himself, and I hope I'm getting the character's name, is a robot, and his consciousness was uploaded to it and his original body had had, was gone.
And he was arguing to Captain Kirk and the and Nurse Shuffle. It's really me. It's still me.
Marco Ciappelli: Uh huh
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: And, and they were like, it's not you. And so again, 1960s, this was an interesting episode.
Marco Ciappelli: Black Mirror before. Black Mirror.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: Yeah.
Marco Ciappelli: Star Trek is the original Black Mirror. Yeah. That and the Twilight Zone, I think.
But
yep,
Marco Ciappelli: that, that is exactly what we're talking about now. Yeah, I, I love that. [00:27:00] And I didn't know you were such a Star Trek, uh, in Shia Encyclopedia.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: I have watched nearly, I, oh, no, not nearly. I should all, I should watched all the original episodes, original series episodes, multiple, multiple times. Um, wow. I still watched the episodes, even though I know exactly how they're gonna turn out, which doesn't make any sense because like, I know how it's gonna, why am I watching this for 10th time?
But what's interesting is, I think one of the things that, that. One of the reasons why that that series really subsequently, like when it first came out, it wasn't as popular, but it's become a cult classic, right? Because. People realized that in many ways the episodes captured or anticipated a lot of the trends that will occur mm-hmm.
In the future. Um, and not only did they anticipate it, they also asked the, you know, the, the more difficult ethical questions. Like, again, Roger Corby, he's got all the imprints, it's a robot. Is it really him? Like, if he can [00:28:00] feel that way, et cetera, if the robot actually feels that he's ro Roger Corby, is it?
Well, not really, because it's not the original. So then at what point, so you know that, that, that's gonna be a big, an interesting question. The closer one gets to those possibilities, so,
Marco Ciappelli: okay. So do you think, is it still him, even if he is a reproduction?
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: Well the argument in that Captain Kirk, and you've gotta listen to what Captain Kirk says, um, was that no, because it's not the original person.
It was, you know, maybe all the imprints or so like that. But, but the original person passed away and the argument was that the original person ethically may not have done all this stuff right. But, um, so. Uh, so yeah, so the argument there is it is actually a different person, even though everything was copied, it's a different person or not a person because it's [00:29:00] a robot driven by AI imprints, so, right.
Yep.
Marco Ciappelli: But then the question is, would AI ever become conscious and therefore make our own experience? He's her like. I refer to Chad G, PT as a her, even if the voice is, is a male. So that's kind of confusing there. I need to figure things out. But you know, and, and, and, and I think that's a big difference when you talk about what make us different from artificial intelligence or robotics or whatever, is that they lack that emotional experience creation and they're just reproducing something that we have put in there.
Their system. But then there are the other one that talk about the fact that we don't even know how we build our own memories and feelings and neurons and all of that. So as a, as the black box [00:30:00] of AI keep evolving, the theory of many is that eventually would get to create emotion. But if it does that, then really it's not the same person that's, it would be a completely different person based on you.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: Yeah. You know, it's crazy. Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, the responses, um, that something that's AI driven depend, um, heavily or completely on the actual algorithms and how, how they are, uh, devised, right? So if, if I devised the algorithm that says that, okay, I want to keep. Devis in a way so that like anytime Marco asks this algorithm something, then I want, you know, I want to keep Marco happy.
Right. So basically, and you put in these things just like, oh, be, just be agreeable about everything. Okay. Just [00:31:00] say for instance, you put in algorithm, say this algorithm will be agreeable about everything. Well then someone say, oh, this is great, this algorithm that agrees with me, everything. Oh, I feel so close to this.
Artificial person or what have you. But then like at what point is the algorithm telling you stuff that's actually not good for you, but just keeps telling you, oh, you're great, you're great, everything's fantastic. You're great, you're great, you're great. You know, that's just an example of how it can get complex, right?
So you can feel I'm emotionally connected to this thing because this thing's making me feel good.
Mm-hmm. And therefore
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: I have stronger, stronger emotional connection. But a real person and a real relationship. You know, a, when you talk about real friends, right? Real friends support you and stuff like that, but they also tell you when you're like, you know, you're doing something that's bad for you or you're doing something stupid, they'll just say, they'll say, Hey, are you sure you want to do this?
Or, that's smart, and stuff like that.
[00:32:00] Mm-hmm.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: Algorithm may or may not do that. So it depends on how it's actually programmed. Right. So,
Marco Ciappelli: and that's, and that's the reason. Why we could connect to what we talked about at the beginning that you wrote these articles and I mentioned like that people are having relationship with ai, they have friendship, they're open with them, and they feel they can marry this, uh, AI woman or man because it's probably is their dream ideal person because it just says.
Yeah, you're great all the time. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. If something that does not happen with my wife at all.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: Well, you know, that's, that, it's, it's that. So it's interesting because people are different, right? There's some people who want, I want someone or something that's always agreeable with me, right?
Mm-hmm. Because for whatever reason, you know, ego reasons or, or things like that, and you know, that's personal choice, right? Whereas there's other people who feel law. That [00:33:00] would be kind of weird if, if someone agreed with me all the time. So, um, so yeah, so you're, I think you're right that there, there are people that find this very attractive, uh, that if something's agreeing with them or telling them how great they are all the time, they feel like this is what I want, this is the actual relationship that I want, and then therefore, for them, AI or AI driven.
Technology that will do that for them is very attractive and satisfy their definition of a human relationship. Of a relationship. Now what's also another interesting thing is, well, this changed people's expectations of relationships, right? So over years, you know, we're used to like, oh, well, you know, everyone's gonna have their, you know, crotty, um, you know.
Difficult aspects, but you're, you're used to it because, you know, people are human, right? People are not perfect, but are we [00:34:00] creating expectations of perfection, quote unquote perfection? Um, that then people will say, Hey, I don't wanna do with humans.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: They're too messy. They don't tell me what I want to hear all the time.
Right. So
yeah,
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: it's an interesting, um. It. And it's also one of the reasons why we see, I think we see many times people are gravitate towards gravitating towards technology because it's just easier sometimes. Like, oh, I can, I can just, you know, I can call something up and you know, I can pull up a streaming service and just get whatever I want all the time.
I don't actually have to like worry about not getting one-on-one. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. Or there's, you know, I, I was, um, I was seeing something where, uh, people were talking about how that's one of the challenges with Instagram and social media where people will glorify their relationships
Marco Ciappelli: Yep.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: On social media.
So then everyone will think, oh my [00:35:00] goodness, my relationship's not like that.
Marco Ciappelli: Yep.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: You know, why can't it be like that? So, you know that, that, that it's all the same phenomenon where you're sort of changing expectations. What real life is supposed to be like and you know, that has its perils. I think,
Marco Ciappelli: you know, you always look back and, and you made a really good point and you always look back at how humans are still human, right?
When we talk about social engineering, for example, we fall for the same trick. We're we're still motivated by prehistoric needs of. Or, or, or, or feeling like fears and being impulsive. And, and when you feel in danger, you react in a certain way. And the people that can, they call it social engineering, and we think about that as a, you know, scam and fishing and all that kind of stuff.
Social engineering exists from the beginning of time, scam romance. It's just the [00:36:00] scale. Of how we do things now that is different. And the reason why I'm saying this is because while you were talking about, you know, the perfect relationship and the perfect, uh, people, even before technology, the way it is now, um, you know, technology in term of movies and, and magazines and so on.
I mean, I remember even when Photoshop came up, um, and, and, and you find out that models were modified. And they were not the real body and was given this expectation of perfection that it didn't really exist. And then the magazines that tell the beautiful story and, and, and people have been always falling in love with ideal things.
Mm-hmm. Except that now they believe they're real. I feel like that's the problem. 'cause I can watch a movie and say, well, this was a great movie. It was a movie.
Yeah.
Marco Ciappelli: And [00:37:00] one thing is walking away or playing a video game is like, oh, this is a great video game. And then when I turn it off, that was a video game.
Now I'm back in my real world and not expect that whatever, uh, I was flying or whatever happened in the movie, I need to expect it to happen. And I think that people have been starting to blur this. Yep, this difference. Yeah. And, and that's, especially as a teenagers, when you know, you, you're not really clear.
But I don't think it's just a teenager problem. I think it's a, it's a societal, a large issue. Yeah.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: That's one of the reasons why, you know, there was a shift in advertising, you know, about, uh, a decade ago where people started realizing that social media influencers, you know, it was the rise of the social media influencers.
So you had a lot of companies realizing, Hey, hold on a second, these people on social media can sell products as well. The difference is when you're watching a movie and tv, you expect an advertisement. You say that's an [00:38:00] advertisement.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: Many times on social media, you know, someone looks more kind of rough hoon, right?
They're like, oh, you know, I'm walking around, I see my bathroom, or see my car, and stuff like that. So you just think it's just a person just going about his or her daily business.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: But there's many times they're selling something. Right? And that's because companies recognize, hey, this person looks more, just call.
Authentic and therefore if they kind of slip in, you know, a soda or something like that, you think they're actually using that product as opposed to a elaborate commercial. So that's really was one of the big jumps in terms of what Pro
Marco Ciappelli: product placement in movies. Yeah. Until it became illegal or you need to declare it.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: Yeah.
Marco Ciappelli: Smoking a cigarette or drinking a Coca-Cola was a very normal thing to do in the sixties or seventies. They were all paid.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: Yep, yep. So yeah, there's, there is certainly more and more blurring of reality that's occurring, but you're absolutely right. None of this is new, like this is, these are not concepts that are new.[00:39:00]
These are not approaches and techniques that are new. What is different is, you know, technology can allow things to happen faster and in a bigger scale, and also just kind of do things Yeah. Just in a larger scale and in a more complex way. So it's using the same principles, but doing it in faster, more complex, larger scale.
Mm-hmm. So,
Marco Ciappelli: and I think that's the, that's the summary of a very complex. Conversation a topic that it's never gonna have the answer, I think, but, but if there is something that I have to say is, I think it's fine if people want to pretend and play, you know, play kitchen or doze or pretend to be a chef and a game or a video game, or having a, a, a friend that is an ai, as long as they know they're.
That that's not [00:40:00] reality. Don't, don't bring that to reality. And, and we've done that with book. I mean, you open a book, you read the Lord of the Ring, it's not at all of a sudden you're gonna take this ring and, and, you know, and become invisible when you put it on and be pissed if it doesn't happen.
Yeah.
Marco Ciappelli: It's a, it's a movie. It's a story is a tale and we had fairytale for forever and I think that's the problem. It's when you, when you mix the two and, and I think it could be, I don't know, maybe it is healthy. Maybe it is healthy to have an AI shrink or an AI best friend. Again, as long as you know that's what it is.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: Yeah, I think that's the, you know, it, it's interesting these days you hear people on opposite ends of the spectrum. Like some people are like
always,
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: you know, very enthusiastic about ai and then some people think it's just like the worst thing ever and there's like anti against. And I think the truth is somewhere in between, right?
So of course, you know, it's one of [00:41:00] these things where we have to be, you know, they're aware of the benefits and are aware of the risks. And if the conversations the, I think one of the problem is the conversations aren't. Always happening. Like people aren't talking about these things and there needs to be more conversations like the, like, like what we're having.
That's, that's a plug for our conversation. But um, yeah, they have to be having so people understand and they can separate reality from, uh, from fiction or what have you. So yeah, you're absolutely right. If, if, if, if something works for someone, yeah. No judgment. As long as they aren't hurting other people, right?
Mm-hmm.
Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, and I think that apply also too, if somebody wants to talk to their deceased, uh, uh, friend or family member or celebrity or writer or whatever, just knowing that. Captain Kirk said it. It's not really you.
Yep.
Marco Ciappelli: You know, it's fun, it's great, but, and it is not really you. And that's probably, that's probably [00:42:00] is the answer.
I mean, you, you, you're not, you're just having a picture or a movie of that you can watch and we watch a million times. And maybe you get a good advice too, because maybe AI can definitely get the thinking, the methodology of thinking of that person. And that's, that's really cool. Yep. So, absolutely. Yeah.
Well, um, real Bruce and real Marco brought you a conversation about Dan County Valley. Yep. And it's not in a can, it's not a Campbell soup. And then we're not paid sponsor for, for that. But, uh, Bruce, I. As usually I enjoy this conversation. We start with something and we don't really know where we're going, but I think we make sense.
And I don't wanna sound like your friend, AI, that tells you that you're good, but you know you're good. Keep, keep being yourself. I love it.
Dr. Bruce Y. Lee: Well, well thank you. Likewise.
Marco Ciappelli: All right, [00:43:00] well let's keep meeting into this bar where, uh, you know, um, eventually one day somebody will walk in and we will have other conversation with other people.
So and so far, I hope everybody appreciate this. Stay tuned for the next one, and take care, subscribe and see you soon. Thank you, Bruce.