What happens when a government decides to “fix” a problem by banning it outright? That’s the question on the table as Australia pushes forward with a law prohibiting social media access for kids under 16.
Guest:
Jaqueline (JJ) Jayne
JJ has worked with people and technology for over 25 years, wearing multiple hats, resulting in an enviable breadth and depth of experience, insights and knowledge. She successfully led a security awareness and training program that resulted in a strong security culture and observable behaviour change. Over the last 5-years, JJ worked at KnowBe4, where she quickly established herself as a trusted voice in the region. Now, JJ consults and advises organisations, appears at conferences and events with her thought leadership, and provides insights across all forms of media.
On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jacquelinejayne/
Website: https://www.jacquelinejayne.com.au
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Host: Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society & Technology Podcast
Visit Marco's website 👉 https://www.marcociappelli.com
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Show Notes Blog:
What happens when a government decides to “fix” a problem by banning it outright? That’s the question on the table as Australia pushes forward with a law prohibiting social media access for kids under 16.
But let’s be real—does banning ever work?
Jacqueline Jayne, aka JJ, joins me to dissect this decision, what it means for kids, parents, and the future of digital society. JJ, a cybersecurity and human risk expert, argues that while the dangers of social media are undeniable—cyberbullying, exploitation, and mental health risks—the solution isn’t prohibition. Instead, we need real education, both for kids and, more importantly, for the adults who are supposed to guide them.
Think about it. If we let our kids drive at 16, it’s because we’ve spent years teaching them road safety. But when it comes to digital life, we throw them a smartphone at 10 and then panic when they don’t know how to use it responsibly. And now, instead of teaching, we just… ban?
Let’s not forget the unintended consequences. Cutting off access doesn’t eliminate social media—it just drives kids to sneakier, potentially more dangerous alternatives. VPNs, fake accounts, dark web forums—when you push something underground, it often gets worse, not better. And what about the kids who rely on online spaces for community, education, and connection? Do we really want to isolate them further?
So, what now? JJ and I discuss what’s next, how governments, parents, and society can actually address the risks of social media without resorting to the digital equivalent of a temper tantrum. Because in the end, this isn’t just about Australia—this conversation is global.
Are we going to keep throwing laws at problems we don’t fully understand, or are we finally going to start taking education and digital literacy seriously?
Listen in, question everything, and don’t forget—don’t click on that s**t!
Let me know what you think! Share your thoughts, questions, or even your debates—I’d love to hear them. And, of course, don’t forget to subscribe to Redefining Society & Technology for more conversations like this.
Stay tuned for the next episode!
Marco Ciappelli
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Resources/References
Episode recorded with JJ in Melbourne during Australian Cybersecurity Conference 2025
Balancing Technology and Human Awareness in Cyber Defense: Strategies for Families and Organizations | An Australian Cyber Conference 2024 in Melbourne Conversation with Jacqueline Jayne | On Location Coverage with Sean Martin and Marco Ciappelli
https://redefiningsocietyandtechnologypodcast.com/episodes/balancing-technology-and-human-awareness-in-cyber-defense-strategies-for-families-and-organizations-an-australian-cyber-conference-2024-in-melbourne-conversation-with-jacqueline-jayne-on-location-coverage-with-sean-martin-and-marco-ciappelli
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[00:00:00] Marco Ciappelli: Well, hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Redefining Society and Technology or Technology and Society. It doesn't matter. It's, it's a two way street podcast with me, Marco Ciappelli. And of course, I never talk. Well, I think I could just talk to myself for about half an hour, but I'm going to avoid that.
Thanks. As much as I can, and I bring pretty cool guests and this guest, I brought it all the way from Down Under where, you know, I was not too long ago to cover the Australian Cyber Conference 2024 in Melbourne. It was. An amazing experience. Sean and I got to meet so many cool people and JJ, which is right here, is one of them.
There is a reason why she is the first one coming back after we spoke at the event. But before I, I bring up the reason, I want to let, uh, JJ introduce herself and, uh, welcome to the show. How are you doing?
[00:01:07] Jacqueline Jayne: Thank you, Marco. It's wonderful to be here from the other side of the world, coming to you from the future.
[00:01:13] Marco Ciappelli: From the future.
[00:01:14] Jacqueline Jayne: Yeah. I think it was that I was your first guest at the Acer Cyber Conference.
[00:01:18] Marco Ciappelli: That's right. You are the first, no matter where, how. You're the first.
[00:01:23] Jacqueline Jayne: And here I am again. I know. And, and folks listening and watching, I had no idea it was even happening until, uh, The night before or the morning of.
So here we are. Um, my name is Jacqueline Jane, also known as JJ. Either way is fine. Um, but JJ tends to roll off the tongue a lot easier. Um, I work in the world of, of cyber security in the human element. So that conduit between people and technology, technology and people, um, and Terminology has changed a lot over the years, um, but some call me the security influencer.
I'm that expert in human risk management, which is that evolution of security awareness training, and online safety specialist, talking to the individual, the person on the street, the non IT professional, The people who have kids online, um, and the people who are making the same mistakes, their kids are online.
It's for me, sparking curiosity and getting people to think differently about technology because it. Really is all about humans, not the technology. And humans don't come secure by design. And we cannot be patched on Tuesdays, my friends. So that's why I'm here. A little bit about me. Um, I can be seen all over the different places, but my website's the best place to go and you'll get all those links, I know, in the, in the show notes, Marco.
Is that how we call it? Everything's in the show notes.
[00:02:46] Marco Ciappelli: You will. And look, I even get a card, the real one. It's I have it with me. So that proved that I actually got to meet you in person, which doesn't happen often to my, to me and my guests, but this card says, don't click on exclamation point. So that, that's how I call you too.
It's the don't click.
Show and tell. For the people listening in the podcast, there's a sticker and a business card that says
[00:03:16] Jacqueline Jayne: that. Yeah, double sided business card for your viewing pleasure, as I say.
[00:03:22] Marco Ciappelli: So, uh, we had a great time. We did. I think the event in Melbourne was amazing. We did 20 conversations in different places in the room and in the venue.
And I think it was a success. And the whole association said so, um, I think it was great. And then
[00:03:43] Jacqueline Jayne: you got to speak to some of the best people, Marco, some of my favorite people in the world of cyber here in Australia. When I saw the list after, upon reflection, I'm like, wow, you got to talk to all the good people.
[00:03:55] Marco Ciappelli: We got them all, even the ambassador for security, infrastructure and cyber security there. And, but when we were talking and we were talking about, uh, you had. Uh, several, um, speaking session there, one was about, uh, you know, kind of the fact that you don't need to be technical at all to, to be secure in cybersecurity, you bring the human aspect.
I've always brought the human aspect. And um, and then we mentioned that maybe something was happening in Australia. It was in the talk, it was in the news, and it was about a ban on social media and, uh, for people under 16. So I think that's a pretty big news for a lot of reasons. From my perspective, number one, how the hell are you going to Are you going to knock that?
That's, I'm curious to see it. The idea could be cool, could be not. And, uh, and when that happened last week, or if, if I'm publishing 10 days later, that's still pretty recent. I said, I got to talk to JJ and here you are. And I know that it's kind of an open end conversation. I don't think there is an answer.
Um, a definitive answer, but let, let's start with what, what is it? In a few words, for people that don't follow cyber security or the law, what does it mean for, for these kids?
[00:05:24] Jacqueline Jayne: I call it the, it's a big can of worms. Um, that's what it is. Um, and it's been open and the worms are everywhere and they're, yeah, it's a big can of worms.
The usual terminology, Marco, you know, you can't fence the ocean. The horse has bolted, the, all the things, um, with social media bans. And I think for, for me, it runs even closer to my heart. I have a nearly 19 year old son who I've navigated his digital citizenship over the years and social media. is a big part of that.
And when do you give them the device? How do they use it? How do they behave well, um, online? How do you monitor that? It's massive. So luckily for him and his friends, as a result of what he's learnt, he's, he's fine. Um, however, the social media bans were, came out around about May this year, a little bit earlier, started to talk about the issues of, of social media and the.
And I will acknowledge the harm it has done to certain groups. Um, usually people that are under the age of 16. Not taking away from adults. This is important for people to know. This, what we'll talk about today, covers everybody using online and social media. This is specifically about kids. And the conversation started with, We're going to ban social media access for anyone 16 and under.
And the only way they can access it is with parental consent or permission. And then asking the platforms themselves to monitor who's actually using it and checking their age. And of course that opens the privacy can of worms, the human rights can of worms for the kids themselves. Um, And how do you then manage kids who are already using social media?
You just take it away from them. And what was fascinating, and the reason why it is I have such strong opinions on it, and so do many of my peers and experts, um, here in Australia. Not just cyber, but the human rights, the kids rights, um, looking at mental health. The people who have, unfortunately, and a minor trigger warning, if Parents have experienced the ultimate, um, the worst experience they could probably have is their, their young person in their life, one of their kids, and deciding to end their life because of cyberbullying, online bullying.
And that is, I can't even imagine. I cannot imagine. And I absolutely understand that something has to be done about that. That is polarizing. There is no excuse. And the bigger challenge is because it's online, Marco, you can't necessarily find who's doing it, but most of it really does come from the local environment that these kids are in.
So, Being driven by that, the government said that's it, we're going to support parents and we're going to ban the social media for 16 and under and nothing else. That was it. Um, and of course whilst I 100 percent support the fact that we need to do better, um, for helping kids online, education is the only way.
Banning. So that is where I've been standing on my soapbox for a long time, um, talking about alternatives and what we can do to actually make a difference. Um, and then the, the law was actually passed just at the end of, uh, CyberCon when you were here. So end of November, the law has been passed now. So it's, the next conversation is, okay, now that's done, what do we do next?
How do we support parents and kids? Um, And do our very best to, uh, strategically manipulate the government to look at it from a different way than banning. Cause banning just works.
[00:09:21] Marco Ciappelli: You know it, when we talk about cyber security often, um, just for people again that are not cyber security. Practitioners and so on.
I heard for 10, 15 years, it's, you know, the, the user is the weakest link. We need to have technology resolving everything. It needs to happen by design. It needs to happen where in a way that the user doesn't even feel is there. Correct. Um, and we need to enable business. So that's why if you don't want, if you want to kill phishing and email, you don't stop using emails.
You just try to keep educating. Bring the technology that can help support, I don't know, a little alert that says, Clippy from Microsoft that says, don't click on that, right? The same thing you were saying. So to say, Stop using the internet then so everybody's safe, but then don't drive the car. Don't do anything really Yes, instead let's educate and I am with you.
I don't care what people are gonna say It's not by banning that you kill it. Now. That's why I think this is gonna be a really good conversation. So education come first, but
[00:10:44] Jacqueline Jayne: It does.
[00:10:45] Marco Ciappelli: Can I tell you one of my favorite thing to say because this is the first time you're gonna hear I think It's from me. You probably heard it, but who's going to educate the educators?
[00:10:57] Jacqueline Jayne: Yes. Go. Well, here's um, something new for your listeners, maybe. Um, My son doesn't believe it actually was coming out of my brain, but many, many, many years ago, because I've always been an educator and a helper. That's what I do. That's my whole world. And we've all heard the lead the horse to water, can't make it drink.
I flipped that to, you can lead the brain to knowledge. You can't make it think. And There's a whole lot of knowledge out there. And then, of course, there's the debate of knowledge is power, or is it knowledge in action is power? Um, we can talk for three days on that topic another time, but we can, we tell people what to do.
Um, I'm talking about the cybersecurity world. We say, don't click on suspicious links. But then don't actually explain what a suspicious link is, how to identify it and where you find them. Um, there's too much assumed knowledge and it has caused a problem with the, the rate of human error in cybersecurity incidents, which depending on the report you read and you would know this, anywhere between 85 and 95 percent of cyber incidents are the result of human error.
That says something and it's increased over the years, not decreased. So. This is a human problem we have overarching in cyber security. Um, and the social media bans really taps into the nature of how our young people are so hyper connected, and their world is even more intense. Then our world where we've been introduced to technology in our working life.
They're born with it these days.
[00:12:42] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. So let's look at the negative and positive. I mean, we kind of say overall, it's no good. What I hope is going to do is that now there is a kind of a cooling period. Where it needs to be implemented, given the time to the big company, Facebook and so on, to TikTok to find a way to do it.
And people say, well, you know, if you, if you can check the driver license to sell alcohol or to access certain kind of website, then you should be able to do it here. But then, you know, privacy, minors, blah, blah, blah. But overall. So, maybe it will shake something, maybe we'll rethink it, maybe it's a lesson, because I think this is shaking the entire world, because when something happens somewhere, usually then there are repercussions in the European community, the United States, and every, everywhere else.
So, is there anything good in this? Maybe apart from what I say, maybe it's going to start making people actually talk.
[00:13:50] Jacqueline Jayne: Absolutely. Absolutely. If Where, where anyone in the world has an opinion or are passionate about something and it hits the main headlines, that's a positive. Even if the topic is not necessarily everyone agrees with, it's a very polarizing topic.
So in my opinion, having all of these people come together, whether you agree with it or not, it's the conversation starter. Um, and if it helps one kid. Do a better job online and not be the nasty bully and think about the consequences. And if it helps one kid not experience that on the other side, it's worth it.
Um, it brings everything to the forefront and I call on all of the, So the cyber security experts globally to think about it because this conversation is happening in other countries. And now that we've passed the bill here and the law is in place, it, like you said, to your point, people will be grabbing this and saying, well, they did it in Australia, and this will start to roll out everywhere.
Um, and the good thing is parents and carers can now have some more information to sit with their kids and have that conversation. The challenge is, if your kid is under maybe like 10 or 11 years old and they don't have a device yet, which is again, getting younger and younger. But if your kids do not have a device yet, this is an amazing opportunity to start them off in the right way.
Um, so that they're safe and they keep others safe. For the kids that are already online and using social media that technically shouldn't be, but they are, um, parents have a struggle on their hands to say, well, we can't take it away. There will be anarchy if they do that. It's a fact. Um, turning the, you know, banning the TV.
Personal story, when I was in my final year of high school, my mum removed the TVs from the house. Just the worst possible thing that could have happened because it was TV. It wasn't social media. Um, but I had nowhere to go watch TV and that was the place that you did things back in those days. Um, so that just that alone, thinking about how I felt with TV not being available in my home, you take away my main communication to my world.
That is the That can have more devastating effects in many ways. So then we've got the kids who are coming into, they're 16, 17, 18, 19. How do they get help? Cause they're still doing some questionable things online. So are they now out of the bucket and say, well, we're only going to support kids under 16.
So it's not a one size fits all. It's how do we educate and support our parents and carers and anyone You could have nieces and nephews. You need to know how to make your devices safe in your home if your nieces and nephews come over. It's so complex. But to say we're banning it to support kids, or to help parents?
No, you're not actually. You're causing more harm. And there's evidence to prove that.
[00:17:02] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. You know what I'm thinking? As you're talking and you throw some numbers in terms of age there, I, one of my feelings when I heard The age cut 16. I would have thought it would have gone on a younger age. Maybe when, when you still have, first of all, you're not a teenager, your life, your social life is not already around that.
I can live without social media. I mean, yeah, for business, of course, there's LinkedIn and all of that, but I, I mean, I, I mean, I'm a Walkman kid, you know what I mean? So I'm okay. I'm going to survive. Don't take the radio away from me and music. I'll kill you. But that's what probably is for a 16, the social media, right?
So could have been better on your opinion, if it was. Younger? 12? I don't know. I'm just throwing a number there.
[00:17:59] Jacqueline Jayne: Yeah. Look, I think because of the nature of there not being the way technology and the internet and connectivity devices, how it's moved so fast, like it's the fastest evolution of something ever in the history of everything.
AI is, is probably going to be the exception because that has moved even faster. When we think about the, how we grew up and when things were, you know, I remember buying a laptop in the late nineties for the equivalent of just under 9, 000 Australian dollars. And it was the first Toshiba active screen where you could see the colors from the side and the front was huge.
Um, I was one of a few, like very few. Now we give our kids these incredible devices that access the world and amazing things, but there's negative and parents don't know how to fix that to start with. There's, well, I still, I'm sticking to, I think we're still two generations away of kids coming into the world with the support they need to be good digital citizens, be safe and understand that and there be the dumb phones first until they're probably 13, 14, 15, but they need a license in a sense, like a pen license at school to get that.
But they've, they should learn it at school, learn how to do this. Well, like road safety. I love analogies, Marco. Um, should write a book on analogies.
[00:19:31] Marco Ciappelli: The, yeah, I'll help you.
[00:19:34] Jacqueline Jayne: Let's do it. Cause in cyber security is analogies, is what gets people to have that penny drop. And they think, ah, uh, The social media events.
[00:19:44] Marco Ciappelli: Oh, that's what you mean, okay. .
[00:19:45] Jacqueline Jayne: Exactly. Because they don't understand the technology, the cyber side, it's road safety. When you've got a little tiny walking kid who's just learning their bike, they might have one of those bikes with no pedals and they're just learning their balance and. You don't let them out on the street by themselves.
You're with them. You're holding their hand. You're high monitoring. There's sometimes a stick attached to their bike so that they're not going to get off on their own. As they grow and learn more, they might get a new bike with training wheels and you're teaching them the road rules. Cyber security and that digital citizenship element, cyber is a life skill.
So if we teach it, our parents and carers and adults, if they know what that is, then they can help kids because grandparents are helping kids with road safety because it's part of our world. And it's the same with cyber. So I strongly believe that if we're educating, um, At age appropriateness of when they're using technology through school, like math, you don't learn calculus in first year of school.
You're learning the basic stuff. Same with technology. By the time you leave school, Or when it's time for you to embark on a world of social media, you already know about it, what it is, the dangers, the positives. That is, that is critical. Um, and that is a hill I will die on. We are, we can't change that age yet, but maybe in two generations we'll have more of a structure like road safety.
We don't give a 10 year old keys to our car. Say, can you go down the shop for me? Cause they can't drive, but we give them these devices and say, you know, don't click on suspicious things and be careful of predators or, you know, or we say nothing and they have no idea. So, yes, as you can tell, I'll keep talking for six days on this, Marco, so I'll just
[00:21:36] Marco Ciappelli: No, but we, we actually, I want to invite people to listen to, to go to ITSP Magazine.
Actually, on my podcast, this one here, there is our coverage with that interview with you. Because we did talk about the education and, and, and I think the conclusion was, if you don't learn and you make it part of your culture, Then you can just say 16 years old in the U. S., you know, in Italy is 18. Here are the keys, because now you're mature enough to drive, but you have no idea, you never drove a bike before, you don't know what the street, you are assimilating in your way of living and thinking and looking and it becomes part of you.
a certain knowledge. So that break is, it's horrible. And I don't think it's the kid's fault, of course, but I think there was a gap. All right. So follow me here because I've had these conversations other times. When, when we went from, let's say the nineties, right? So when we went from people my age, from loving analog to embracing the internet computers and all of that, I think we, we, we, we jumped on that train, right?
Yeah. And we, we learned it on our own. And, oh, file a file cabinet on Microsoft means, you know, you, you do reference with the real world. And, and, and it is the same thing what we're doing now, metaphors for the online world, right? Which for a lot of people became the one that didn't take the train. And I'm not making them guilty for that, but they become a generation that.
They created a gap in knowledge and their kids got that gap.
[00:23:19] Jacqueline Jayne: Exactly.
[00:23:20] Marco Ciappelli: And so that's what I say who educates the educator because then you expect, Oh, you're a kid like my dad used to be like, hey, that just just fix the the stereo system. Okay, fine I'll figure it out. And now they this my kid is great with With the internet.
What does it mean it's great with the internet? It's just using something that it goes there, but this is an ignorance and a non knowledge that it's brought down from one generation that doesn't know to one, but it does know how to tell you how to drive. Because they did embrace the car. They don't come from the horse and tell you to go and drive.
[00:24:00] Jacqueline Jayne: And if that's a, that's perfect analogy as well. When, when I get pushback of the road safety, I say to people, let's go back through the industrial revolutions when cars were introduced. It took a few generations for cars to develop. And you know, once there were more cars, roads had to get better. And once there was more of that, then we had to really think more about safety and seat belts weren't law for years.
Um, it was only when there was an issue that we had to look at the safety of that and everyone was involved. Um, that's how things are supposed to be. And then it took that generation for. Everyone in the family, no matter what age, knew how to change the oil, knew how to, you know, do the tyres, the basic things.
Then there were mechanics who were specialists in that, because you can't do all the things on the car. But there was a holistic view where everyone in the community had a role to play. Um, and now, Everyone pretty much knows, um, what to do with road safety and vehicles and et cetera. So when you think about the online world, to your point, we're saying, look, our kids are so great at this.
A lot of it, they're so great at because technology has made it so easy. I was programming in basic language, people. So, um, I look very good for my Age. Um, it wasn't easy to create games then. You were writing the games. It took weeks. And you had to find the full stop error somewhere in your coding. Now, kids just plug and play.
Pick it up. Off they go. Download. They're in. It's, it's not because kids are somehow more brilliant. The technology has made the, what's that, that term, Marco? The, the speed to competency or the, the pathway so easy. We had to do things the hard way back in the day. Um, and it's just
[00:25:51] Marco Ciappelli: But you also don't know how it works.
[00:25:53] Jacqueline Jayne: I have no idea.
[00:25:54] Marco Ciappelli: You have no idea and if you don't know have idea. If you don't know that there is electricity in the wall with the wire that's why the bulb turn on and you don't need to know how to wire. I wouldn't touch it but I kind of know if it doesn't work the bulb the reason probably. There's a couple of options, right?
[00:26:14] Jacqueline Jayne: It's moved so fast and we think, yes, this is fantastic, but we are an impatient society now. We want things now. And like we, Jez, I can still hear the dial up tones. I'm sure you can too, Marco. Everything is so quick. I mean, we had a, Folks who are listening and watching yesterday, we were going to be doing this yesterday, but my internet was cutting in and out.
It was the end of my world, because I thought, I can't do the recording with Marco. That is one of those challenges that We need to think about where we are as a society, and there's not a one size fits all for a while yet. So if our governments realise that, okay, this is not a technology issue, this is a, um, an evolutionary issue, how do we put a line in the sand where we are now and help these different groups over the next 50, 60, 70 years, um, we'll get to a point where everyone who comes into the We'll know more about what we're doing online and we won't, this won't be an issue because there will be things in place.
Um, I think every kid should have the dumb phone for a long time, um, just for calls and SMS. And when they then understand and can prove that, like a driver's license, um, then they can have that smarter device and it can be little bit by little bit. Prove themselves and off they go. I had actually
[00:27:40] Marco Ciappelli: That would be kind of cool, I'd say.
You get a map because you need the map. You get something because you need something. I kind of like that idea. Now let's go through this. So for example. Um, I, I, I, I was chatting with CHAT GPT because I'm crazy like that. So I talked to technology. So, you know, let's, let's look at some. Pro and cons for, for this.
So I'm going to read you the cons. Privacy concern. We already talked about that. Accessibility issue that could isolate vulnerable youth to rely, that relies on social media for emotional support or community. So we're forgetting all those people that are actually those kids that are connecting. Yes.
With other, and creating communities. Yep. You just tell them, you just tell them now? Anymore?
[00:28:33] Jacqueline Jayne: Exactly. I know. The, in Australia, if you people aren't aware who are watching and listening, Australia is massive, and as big as landmass of America, United States. And a lot of our kids are rural, so they're in the country.
[00:28:47] Marco Ciappelli: Yep.
[00:28:48] Jacqueline Jayne: They rely on technology to communicate and connect and do their schoolwork. The LGBTQI plus community, um, that is where they find their community and belong. And it's critical for them. Um, the gaming community, if you're a gamer, if you are in the, you know, the Dungeons and Dragons world, no matter what you do, you can find your people, um, and connect and belong like never before.
So you're removing that, that accessibility for all those groups. It's, uh, it's a good point.
[00:29:20] Marco Ciappelli: Or if you're a programmer and want to exchange, you know, your kid that wants to get into that or any other, like you could be in history and anthropology or whatever you want, but you're killing education and connection.
So third point, implementation challenges. That was how we started. I didn't, that great idea. Now go and do it. I don't know how you do it because that brings to another problem, which is also, we know that if you tell the kid not to do something. They're going to find a way to do it. And I feel like there's going to be, for some, way worse consequences than just using the regular social media.
I don't even want to think about it.
[00:30:08] Jacqueline Jayne: Oh, no. And to that point, and I'll say this is very, for all Australians listening, for the kids, for parents and carers, um, What are the penalties if your kid is under 16 and they do use social media? Firstly, there's a 12 month period of implementing all of this.
Secondly, there are no civil, um, penalty for parents or anyone else. who provide access to the kids under 16 for social media. So nothing can legally happen. Um, it just to try to make it harder and make it a banned thing. So like getting some alcohol, if you're 15, 16, 17 years of age, and that's what you want to do, you will find someone to buy the alcohol for you.
Um, that's what people do. Not kids, but that's what people do. Prohibition. There's another conversation. This is about. We don't want kids to go get another device and have no idea what they're doing. And more harm can come from that. If you can't, if I had access to my son's phone, I don't now. Um, I probably still do actually.
I never looked at it, but I had access. So that was, um, facial recognition. And at the time thumbprint because he was under the age of 18 and that's my job as a parent to make sure he's safe online. Um, I was a friend. For all his social media stuff, never commented. Parents, carers, do not engage in conversation with your kids as teenagers.
Just be there to observe. Don't even go and look unless you really feel it's necessary. I had no need and access to go look at all, ever. He knew I had the ability to do so and I checked it. Because that's my role to protect my son online. So many parents and carers don't even think about that. They just give the phone and that's it.
And then should they need access, they can't find anything out. So if we ban it, kids will go the prohibition line and get devices elsewhere. They're so cheap. They're not expensive anymore. Well, they'll go and steal them if they really want them. That's how desperate they'll get.
[00:32:14] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, and they'll get, I think they'll, of course, they'll probably come up some alternative, illegal, more free to access social media.
I don't know if they're going to go in the dark web, but that's an option. Or you're going to use a VPN and connect. I don't want to give ideas, but there is a lot of ways that you can hack the system. Marco,
[00:32:38] Jacqueline Jayne: that was a big thing. People are like, you shouldn't be telling everyone what to do. I said, you can go to any search engine and type it in and get all the details.
So it's not giving any, um, Specialized information to anyone. Parents don't know that their kids can go on their Xbox or PS5 and access the internet. They don't know that. They're not gamers.
[00:33:00] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, you can access the internet from your car and many people don't even know it's connected to the internet.
[00:33:05] Jacqueline Jayne: If Breach can help you these days, so yeah, I'm sure people can hear the frustration, but it is a frustration.
There's so much that,
[00:33:14] Marco Ciappelli: um, And you're touching on the parent, parental rights, because that was point number four. You already went there. So if somebody. Yeah, well, you probably did the same question I did. And then, you know, again, it's the, I think it's just not empowering knowledge and, and just say, I, when I was a kid, if people, my dad would be like, no, you can't do that.
My question would be like, why not? You can't just tell me not to do it. You got to give me a reason. So when you ban, you're not giving a reason. You're just, I'm going to take it away from you. And you're not educating people. No. And that's the
[00:33:58] Jacqueline Jayne: problem. And especially some people here are leading with, well, we, the parents can say to their kids, well, the government says you can't do it, so you can't do it.
That isn't going to land with teenagers. Um, it just won't. It, it's a very knee jerk reaction to a legitimately real problem. And when there's a complex problem, there's something that, let me bring, I have this highlighted because it's important. Um, this situation we have is what's known as a wicked problem.
This was from a friend of mine who brought this to my attention. A wicked problem is a complex social or cultural issue that is a difficult or inherently impossible to solve. This is one of those wicked problems. You can't just ban it, stop it, measure it, manage it. It's so complex. And I think that is, if people realise that, then they're giving them, getting themselves off the hook as parents who might be thinking, I've done the wrong thing.
This is, I'm a bad parent. No, you don't know what you don't know. So this is about taking a step back and saying, okay, my child or my, my children, what are their ages? Where are they at? And you will need to look at different approaches. Um, it's not easy. And that's where I'm wanting to create, uh, I suppose a place where parents and carers can come anywhere in the world and say, okay, my kids this age, what do I do?
Because it, it's not, necessarily something that you can just say, download this checklist. You're done. It's not that easy. Parents are making the same mistakes online as their kids are.
[00:35:45] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah.
[00:35:45] Jacqueline Jayne: So it's educating them. It's so complex.
[00:35:49] Marco Ciappelli: It is complex. I think that your point, and I keep thinking when you live in a digital society or a hybrid, obviously we still live in the real world as well, but, but the digital world is become real as real as it can be.
Um, parents need to educate schools I mean, as you teach the basic, I think schools need to start having that few hours a week of, I mean, it's vital, it's vital for our society as you explain, uh, civil rights and, and, and other kind of regulation or education about digital life for me is a no brainer. Same.
But I guess it's one, two, and I'm, I'm, I know a lot of other people in the industry, of course, that would certainly agree with, with us. But I am also afraid that if you accept this, um, and you say, okay, there will be more law coming in. That control the digital life. And that's not a good thing for democracy, I think.
[00:37:05] Jacqueline Jayne: No, it isn't. I mean, we've seen what's happened in some countries around the world where Facebook is banned. There is a legitimate Facebook version on the dark web that is accessible. And it, people don't understand again, when you let them know the non IT people It's not the way the internet works isn't what people think.
It's not all drugs and guns on the deep dark web. And there's different levels of that. Yes, it's there, but there's also things that make accessibility available to those where governments have banned certain things, they will find a way. And the platforms themselves have made that available. It's not a, someone else has created Facebook.
It's actually Meta who've created it for those people. And it is, for me, it doesn't make any sense. But when I think if I was a government who wanted to, um, seem to be doing the right thing, cause that's what they want votes. Let's, let's just be honest. That's what government is all about. Um, and this seems to be the answer.
Let's ban social media from, you know, this age younger. And they want a grandfather at Mako. They want to say, so if you're 15. 14, 13, 12, 11, 10 and you're on social media, you now can't be. We're going to take it away from you. How do you manage that? Imagine the, the, um, loungeroom conversations there to say, well, you've been using it for four years really well, you know, no problems, but the government says you can't use it now.
This does not sit with me at all. And I was having a conversation with my son about this and I said to him, um, if this was us in a situation, you know, four or five years ago, I would be saying to you, you will be continuing to use social media. The government can say you're not allowed to, but as your parent, I'm saying you can.
Now, that would be, oh, you can't do that. The law says. So we'll. It's going to cause my kids so much more harm. We're a gaming household here and that's, no, this is not going to happen. Just not going to happen. Um, and some parents who don't understand the nature of their world for kids online, it's going to cause a lot of harm, like a lot of harm and quick harm as well.
So, yeah, it's, um,
[00:39:32] Marco Ciappelli: there is an art. And I want to leave you the answer so we can close this, but I also want to touch what you just said. We come from a pandemic where being connected honestly saved. A lot of people from mental crash and I and I think teenagers and and kids being able to go to school but also to have their group on Facebook, their group on any other thing.
Did we just forget about all of that?
[00:40:05] Jacqueline Jayne: When it works, when it's in our favour, again, this is a government hat lens perspective, when it works for us, we'll use it. But when there's a possibility for votes or seemingly doing that quick response, then we'll put something in to help a small group. It doesn't help anybody doing it that way.
But at the same time, the government actually understand what's required, um, because they're not IT professionals. They're not like you and me who understand the complexities of that. Um, so it's challenging. I can't, I can't pick up the phone and have a conversation with, um, Government to say, hey, think about my point of view, because everybody else is doing the same thing for their own reasons.
It's, people would, kids would online doing their whole schooling during the pandemic. What, what would they say then? Oh, oh, okay, well, we'll let you use social media now because of the pandemic, but we'll take it away. Yeah,
[00:41:04] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah,
[00:41:04] Jacqueline Jayne: you can't, you just can't do that. Um, but again, back to the beginning of this conversation, it's bringing this to the, to the forefront where people listening and watching today will be now thinking about this in a different way.
Um, and that's, that's winning in my books. That's a, that's a good outcome.
[00:41:24] Marco Ciappelli: So are we going to end with this then we'll try to take the positive out of. Absolutely. I think, I think that's what we need to do. I think we'll learn. And, uh, and, and again, if this is going to shake and make everybody talk really seriously about cyberbullying and education for online digital, you know, understanding and, and, and this is going to make even parents understand, honestly, what we Kids are doing online, but also themselves experiencing what's going on.
They will see it's not all It's not a dark forest where the the big bad wolf is gonna eat you as soon as you go in there There is a lot of different things happening there And I I want to invite you to come back and talk about more of these things because of course We are having a good time, but I think we're also making Online probably people think in a, in a positive way.
So this is what I like to do on the show. And, um, anytime you're welcome, open invitation 2025, just knock on the door. You'll be here. And hopefully we'll see you again in Melbourne next year. That'd be cool too.
[00:42:44] Jacqueline Jayne: Looking forward to it. It's been awesome talking to you, Marco.
[00:42:47] Marco Ciappelli: I love it too. Everybody, subscribe, share, get in touch with JJ.
There'll be a link to her website in the notes. And, uh, we will see you again on Redefining Society and Technology podcast with the next conversation. Take care, stay safe, and don't click on
[00:43:08] Jacqueline Jayne: that kind of stuff.